Window Carpentry Question..Disassembling Upper Sash

[huckster]

Hey,

I'm remodeling a room for my kid. I'm also updating it at the same time. Sorta also restoring it as well. At this point I'm working on the windows. The top sashes have been painted shut for probably 40+ years. The house was built in the mid 1920s.

While I'm restoring the windows I also want to change the grill pattern in the upper sashes.

I want to change the muntins and mullions pattern in the upper sash. Currently it is 6 divided lites. I'd like to make them "Prairie style" which basically puts 4 square windows in each of the upper sash corners.

So, my big question is this; After I take the sash out of the frame, does any know about dis-assembling it and puttting in new muntins and mullions in the pattern that I like?

I guess I'm wondering about how to break the joints to take the sash rails and style apart. They are old windows and have really nice wood. I'm not sure what they are but to my surprise they are not heart of pine like the rest of the trim work. They are finer grained and much darker, a richer color of red. I'd guess they most resemble cherry.

I do have the infer red heater (paint remover) but I don't think that would soak into the 1-3/4" thick rails and style, and even if it did I don't know if that would soften up the joint. The joints are mortise and tenon and probably modestly keyed like a dove tail for strength.

Any one out there got any window restoration in their past lives?

Cheers,
~Huckster

 

[walnutjerry]

I experienced a little of that on a house built in 1923. You can probably get the sash made easier that trying to retrofit the original. All those mullions are probably mortised into the stiles and rails. Thus, they would have to be plugged and new mortises cut if you change the cinfiguration of the glass. Not to mention trying to match the ogee of the stiles and rails where they meet.

Some of the old sash were pegged mortise and tenon at the corners of the sash. Some were mortise and tenon with short nails to hold them. (called blind nailing I think because the nail did not come all the way through and they did not have a head). Not having a head makes those nails hard to remove since they usually countersunk the nail.

Good luck with the project.
Jerry

 

[huckster]

I was afraid someone would say that. . .Thanks. Your probably right.
~H

 

[Gotcha6]

Go to one of your local independent lumber yards. They will be a better source and some of them may have their own woodworking shops for this type of thing. The big box stores probably won't be able to match your sash profile if you get past the 'deer in the headlights stare' you'll get when you ask. Also, if it's a weighted sash window look into getting a replacement sash with springs and weatherstripped glides. It'll cut down on the drafts.

 

[huckster]

I have sorta priced out replacement sash kits. They are in the basic $150 range for starters. I guess the modern stuff is more energy efficient but is very expensive for anything other than Pine or Riatta (spelling?). I mean $900 for 3 windows would buy lots of wood and router bits :lol: If I bought replacements I'd have my faux grill pattern but I don't think the wood species would be the same as the frame. The exact species of the existing frame and sashes is still a mystery.
I was kinda hankering to make new sashes but to do as little as possible and cannibalize what I can from the existing sashes. It seems that they made them so well back then that they cannot be unmade with any ease.
Check this out, then click on the link "Old woodworking Machines"

http://www.pbs.org/wws/schedule/26season_video.html

This is pretty amazing stuff to me. These folks can bang out a true vintage window sash in 45 minutes.

I wonder why this old house doesn't put their old video online, you'd think they have more cash in their pockets than old Roy Underhill.

 

[NCPete]

I wonder why this old house doesn't put their old video online, you'd think they have more cash in their pockets than old Roy Underhill.

which may be just one reason they do have more cash than Roy Underhill... even though that has been a recent development (online publishing of the old episodes).

 

[sawman]

Pete,
The window sash could be made out of fir, it was used years ago for sash, trim, jambs and various other items for construction.
The cost for retro a fit sash is high but you could buy some more tools and router bits and make them yourself. Just a thought.

Later,
Albert :saw:

 

[Nativespec]

You could make your own and use the current sashes for a pattern. The decision would be whether or not to use individual pieces of glass. You could easily buy sashes with one piece panes and build a grill. That would be the most cost and energy efficient.

David