For those of you who remember my beautiful walnut secretary from last summer, I have a separation problem and need your help with the repair. The rails were attached to the solid side by dados and brads. Glue was attached the the center only to allow for movement of the sides. There are three full drawers in the cabinet with three smaller drawers in the top section divided by two vertical dividers. The rails that the drawers run on have come out of the dados about 1/4 inch on each side. The side doesn't appear to have bowed. My guess is that the glue let go along with the brads that went in from the outside. I can reglue the first three inches and clamp back in place. I have 1 1/2" x 5/8" L brackets to attach to the underside of each rail to correct the problem. My problem is the rear inside bracket. I need to allow for movement of the side of the cabinet. I looked and can't find L brackets with a slot. I thought of using the L bracket and placing a washer in the section for the side and using a smaller screw allowing for the side to move. Any thoughts or opinions please. Lorraine
Solutions for correction of panel separation
- Thread starter lwhughes149
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I have also included a photo of the dividers for the three top drawers. Remember I made a mistake in the application of the dividers by cutting them short and glued and clamped the together before seeing the mistake, I chose not the cut them out. The dividers have now come loose from the top and moved out to the front edge of the cabinet about 1/4 of an inch. Any suggestions here.
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2171&d=1169821993
For those of you who are feeling sorry for my problem please don't. I had a great time making the cabinet and learned a lot from it but these problems only show me just how much I don't know. It makes me even more determined to learn from the past and do a better job on the next project. I only strive to correct this problem and hope that others will see my mistakes and learn from them. But we all know that reading about someone elses problem doesn't help us as much as making the problem ourselves and thus learning the lesson. Thanks for the help and the advice. I don't stress because I know there is someone out there who can help me correct the problems. Lorraine
For those of you who are feeling sorry for my problem please don't. I had a great time making the cabinet and learned a lot from it but these problems only show me just how much I don't know. It makes me even more determined to learn from the past and do a better job on the next project. I only strive to correct this problem and hope that others will see my mistakes and learn from them. But we all know that reading about someone elses problem doesn't help us as much as making the problem ourselves and thus learning the lesson. Thanks for the help and the advice. I don't stress because I know there is someone out there who can help me correct the problems. Lorraine
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Lorraine, how is the grain running on your divider? Is it vertical like the panels? In the picture, it looks horizontal.
The grain on the dividers runs horizontal.
Thanks Mike. I sure hope someone will come in with some suggestions. I plan to put L brackets on it tommorrow unless someone has another suggestion.:BangHead:
Then if I understand correctly, that is your problem. You have the grain on the sides running vertically (up/down), the grain on the top in line with the sides (left to right), and if you have the dividers (front to back) end grain showing, that is the problem itself. You should change/remake your divider to have the grain direction in line with the top/sides.
If I am confusing, or this is what you have already, it would be nice to have a few more pictures. Say with the drawer out showing the divider.
If I am confusing, or this is what you have already, it would be nice to have a few more pictures. Say with the drawer out showing the divider.
I agree with Travis, I sat here earlier this evening looking at the dividers and the top then throw in the sides and the first thing that came to mind, what kind of heating system is in the house.
I could not figure out how the end grain divider grew or moved so the LOML and I went to dinner, pizza yeah, and the light bulb came on.
Gas heat, forced warm air, nice and DRY in the house, moisture is removed from the lumber and it shrinks.
With the grain aligned on the sides and the top it would shrink in width breaking the glue joint on the horizontal plane on the drawer dividers.
Good job Travis.
As to the L brackets that will work.
The same problem happened to the drawer slides if the grain is run similar to the dividers.
Later,
Albert
I could not figure out how the end grain divider grew or moved so the LOML and I went to dinner, pizza yeah, and the light bulb came on.
Gas heat, forced warm air, nice and DRY in the house, moisture is removed from the lumber and it shrinks.
With the grain aligned on the sides and the top it would shrink in width breaking the glue joint on the horizontal plane on the drawer dividers.
Good job Travis.
As to the L brackets that will work.
The same problem happened to the drawer slides if the grain is run similar to the dividers.
Later,
Albert
Travis, do I understand you to say that I should remove the dividers and glue up panels as I did in the side of the cabinet and put them back in place? They are running vertically where the sides are horizontally. Will they come out without tearing up the cabinet?
We are on the same page. Your dividers are not running the same grain direction as your top. What has happened is your top and sides have shrunk due to reduced humidity, but the grain direction of your dividers have not shrunk.
Being that the top has shrunk, your glue and nails have probably loosened anyway. You can try to get them out, but I would do it as a judgement call. Personally, I would say it is 50/50 even call.
If you do get them out, yes, I would glue up a long grain panel to replace the divider with. You can glue it all the way along the top, but only at the front rail edge at the bottom.
To me, doing this it would actually look better as you would not have end grain showing. Additionally, only the front part of it needs to be Walnut (I think you made it out of walnut), and the rest could be a secondary wood, say pine, poplar or something. Do NOT USE PLYWOOD as it does not shrink and expand the same as solid wood.
Hope that helps and that I am clear. If not, ask away. The charge for advice is free.
Being that the top has shrunk, your glue and nails have probably loosened anyway. You can try to get them out, but I would do it as a judgement call. Personally, I would say it is 50/50 even call.
If you do get them out, yes, I would glue up a long grain panel to replace the divider with. You can glue it all the way along the top, but only at the front rail edge at the bottom.
To me, doing this it would actually look better as you would not have end grain showing. Additionally, only the front part of it needs to be Walnut (I think you made it out of walnut), and the rest could be a secondary wood, say pine, poplar or something. Do NOT USE PLYWOOD as it does not shrink and expand the same as solid wood.
Hope that helps and that I am clear. If not, ask away. The charge for advice is free.
Loraine,
First, don't use "L" brackets on that nice piece, it will junk it up and you won't be satisfied with it. As for the drawer dividers, if you can't get the dividers out all the way, try to get them out far enough to cut off approx. 1 - 1 1/2 " . Then cut some new pieces (verticle grain). Push the dividers back into place and try to put a little glue under the divider in the front only. Fit the new pieces in the grooves with glue and clamps. Don't glue the dividers to the new pieces and make sure there is at least a 1/2" gap between them. This will allow more shrinkage if it isn't done moving. As for the side drawer runners, please explain again how you attached them. I know this sounds like a lot of work and it might end up being more than you want but to "fix" the problem, nothing else will do. You have to get rid of that cross grain situation. Wish I were closer, I would be glad to assist you in getting it back in shape. If you have any more questions, ask away.
MIke
First, don't use "L" brackets on that nice piece, it will junk it up and you won't be satisfied with it. As for the drawer dividers, if you can't get the dividers out all the way, try to get them out far enough to cut off approx. 1 - 1 1/2 " . Then cut some new pieces (verticle grain). Push the dividers back into place and try to put a little glue under the divider in the front only. Fit the new pieces in the grooves with glue and clamps. Don't glue the dividers to the new pieces and make sure there is at least a 1/2" gap between them. This will allow more shrinkage if it isn't done moving. As for the side drawer runners, please explain again how you attached them. I know this sounds like a lot of work and it might end up being more than you want but to "fix" the problem, nothing else will do. You have to get rid of that cross grain situation. Wish I were closer, I would be glad to assist you in getting it back in shape. If you have any more questions, ask away.
MIke
Mike's solution is another good alternative.
I definitely agree with no L brackets. It will not improve the situation.
I definitely agree with no L brackets. It will not improve the situation.
Mike, first with the dividers. I will try and remove and inch or two and go with your suggestion. Here is how I made the dividers for the drawers. I made a web frame with all four sides attached. I then glued the middle section to the sides of the cabinet by placing them into a dado on the inside of the cabinet. If I can't use L brackets how will I get them to come back together and stay. Mike I am located about 30 minutes west of Roanoke Rapids. Maybe we could work something out. I sure could use the help.:crybaby2:
Lorraine,
When you say "how can I get them to come back together"?, I am taking this to mean the web frame has come apart. Is this correct? Really, the only part of the web frame that should be glued / nailed is the front. It can be glued to the side panels at the front only so the rest of the side can move and not split the side panel. If there is a little gap at the back (web frame joint), don't worry so much about that as it will close up with the natural movement of the wood. If you can get a pic of the frame problem, it would help as I might be giving suggestions for something that isn't a problem.
MIke
When you say "how can I get them to come back together"?, I am taking this to mean the web frame has come apart. Is this correct? Really, the only part of the web frame that should be glued / nailed is the front. It can be glued to the side panels at the front only so the rest of the side can move and not split the side panel. If there is a little gap at the back (web frame joint), don't worry so much about that as it will close up with the natural movement of the wood. If you can get a pic of the frame problem, it would help as I might be giving suggestions for something that isn't a problem.
MIke
Mike, the web framing isn't coming apart. The web frame has come away from the dado in the side of the cabinet. It was glued in the middle of the side allowing for the front and back to move. Wrong, I know. It should have been glued at the front and allowed to move at the rear. Picture included. All of the dado's have come away from the side. It is open enough now that I could glue the front and put a clamp onto it.
Attachments
Ahh......
You have the same issue on the sides. The web frame itself should have only been glued and/or screwed at the front.
Web frames like this can be fastened hard and tight on the front rail/walnut piece, but the remainder has to be allowed to move, which means no glue, and if screws are used the holes have to be elongated to allow movement.
Time to get the clamps out. I would take the back off, use clamps with wood pads to pull the frames back to the front, clamp it side to side, and toe nail a screw into it. You can use nails the rest of the way (they bend) on the sides. For the divider, you can't do that as the grain direction isn't the same as the rails. If you can cut the divider (which means you get it out), you can do that, and drive a screw into the top and bottom while it is clamped.
You have the same issue on the sides. The web frame itself should have only been glued and/or screwed at the front.
Web frames like this can be fastened hard and tight on the front rail/walnut piece, but the remainder has to be allowed to move, which means no glue, and if screws are used the holes have to be elongated to allow movement.
Time to get the clamps out. I would take the back off, use clamps with wood pads to pull the frames back to the front, clamp it side to side, and toe nail a screw into it. You can use nails the rest of the way (they bend) on the sides. For the divider, you can't do that as the grain direction isn't the same as the rails. If you can cut the divider (which means you get it out), you can do that, and drive a screw into the top and bottom while it is clamped.
Thanks Travis, I guess I have my job cut out for me.
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