Outdoor Finish

[ChemE75]

Did a search and didn’t find any talk about outdoor finishes. I honestly have not done an outdoor project in over 30 yrs when I just used some left over spar polyurethane that worked well as a top coat on a cedar strip canoe. Well, 3 decades later, I’m building a prototype of a “senior” Adirondack chair for the patio. Basically I’m wondering if water based spar polyurethanes are any good - durable, long lasting UV protection, reliable moisture protection? So kind of wondering if some here might have more experience with outdoor finishes to offer some insight?

 

[Mike Davis]

Following. . . Need to finish an Eastern red cedar gate.

 

[chris_goris]

Sikkens Cetol or General Finishes Exterior 450 would be my suggestion.

 

[mlzettl]

One approach to answering the question is to find out what yacht owners use. For many, many years the product of choice was Epiphanes, a marine spar varnish made in The Netherlands. It remains, in my opinion, the standard by which others are judged. I have never been disappointed with the appearance and durability of Epiphanes varnish. I have used Sikkens Cetol, and also General Finishes 450, and they are both superior products and worth consideration. The main drawback to Epiphanes is the application process, which is time consuming. The manufacturer recommends seven (that's correct - 7) coats for the initial application. The first few are cut with decreasing amounts of thinner, and the last 2 or 3 are unthinned. Also, they recommend the high gloss finish as the most durable. If you want a satin finish, then a couple of coats of the satin finish are applied over the gloss.

With that being said, I have been happy with Sikkens and General Finishes on some other projects, but do not have the many years of results to evaluate as I do with the Epiphanes. I would definitely not recommend the "spar varnishes" or polyurethanes that you find at the big box stores. None of the mentioned products are inexpensive, but the initial cost is more than compensated for by the durability. Of course, this is just my own personal experience, but based upon over 40 years of using various products. Hope this helps.

 

[Berta]

When I made outdoor furniture, I used deck stain. I figured if it was good for a deck, it would work for patio furniture. It did. We moved 5 years after I built the furniture, I didn’t bring them with me.

 

[Dee2]

Did a search and didn’t find any talk about outdoor finishes. I honestly have not done an outdoor project in over 30 yrs when I just used some left over spar polyurethane that worked well as a top coat on a cedar strip canoe. Well, 3 decades later, I’m building a prototype of a “senior” Adirondack chair for the patio. Basically I’m wondering if water based spar polyurethanes are any good - durable, long lasting UV protection, reliable moisture protection? So kind of wondering if some here might have more experience with outdoor finishes to offer some insight?

Sounds like another great project to document as a How-to for the Resources forum. Please?

 

[Ricksmi]

I have been using Epifans Clear varnish for outdoor furniture (table and chairs) for over 30 years and have been very happy. Holds up well even after being under 6 feet of snow during the winter. One thing I do like is the UV protection it goes on clear and stays that way years later. Not cheap but worth every dollar IMO.

 

[Henry W]

Tom
There are products across the spectrum in quality and longevity - so it is a great question. Some discussions here on NCWW board have been had with regard to clear finishes on exterior doors. Try searching that. I inquired 5-8(?) years ago or so about exterior door finishes, and finally made the decision to paint it because I was not interested in recoating every year or every other year. Full mornig sun exposure there has caused enough fading on that door that it needs another coat now.

All that said, there is nothing short of 'encasing in plastic' that is 'coat and forget.' The question really is, in my mind at least, 'What is the most durable coating (longest times between recoating)?'
I believe boat owners know that constant upkeep is the only way to keep that woodwork looking great (no personal experience).

One thing I do know is that the most likely wear surface is the ground contact area. I believe some here have recommended an epoxy soak of endgrain there. The back legs of Adirondacks aren't endgrain like the front legs are, but if you go to the effort to do this step, why not do all the ground ccontact surfaces? Again I have no personal experience.

Hope that helps

 

[ChemE75]

One approach to answering the question is to find out what yacht owners use. For many, many years the product of choice was Epiphanes, a marine spar varnish made in The Netherlands. It remains, in my opinion, the standard by which others are judged. I have never been disappointed with the appearance and durability of Epiphanes varnish. I have used Sikkens Cetol, and also General Finishes 450, and they are both superior products and worth consideration. The main drawback to Epiphanes is the application process, which is time consuming. The manufacturer recommends seven (that's correct - 7) coats for the initial application. The first few are cut with decreasing amounts of thinner, and the last 2 or 3 are unthinned. Also, they recommend the high gloss finish as the most durable. If you want a satin finish, then a couple of coats of the satin finish are applied over the gloss.

With that being said, I have been happy with Sikkens and General Finishes on some other projects, but do not have the many years of results to evaluate as I do with the Epiphanes. I would definitely not recommend the "spar varnishes" or polyurethanes that you find at the big box stores. None of the mentioned products are inexpensive, but the initial cost is more than compensated for by the durability. Of course, this is just my own personal experience, but based upon over 40 years of using various products. Hope this helps.

I believe epifanes is a true old school varnish without any urethane modification. Not many remain. Sikkens may be as well. These are very slow drying for recoating. Although I’m pretty sure naphtha can be used as a thinner which aids in drying.

 

[mlzettl]

Henry W makes an excellent point. By far the most durable and low maintenance outdoor finish is high quality exterior paint. Many folks want to preserve the natural appearance of the wood, but when they find out how much time and effort is required over the years to maintain that look, they become less enthusiastic.

 

[ChemE75]

Tom
There are products across the spectrum in quality and longevity - so it is a great question. Some discussions here on NCWW board have been had with regard to clear finishes on exterior doors. Try searching that. I inquired 5-8(?) years ago or so about exterior door finishes, and finally made the decision to paint it because I was not interested in recoating every year or evary other year. Full mornig sun exposure there has caused enough fading on that door that it needs another coat now.

All that said, there is nothing short of 'encasing in plastic' that is 'coat and forget.' The question really is, in my mind at least, 'What is the most durable coating (longest times between recoating)?'
I believe boat owners know that constant upkeep is the only way to keep that woodwork looking great (no personal experience).

One thing I do know is that the most likely wear surface is the ground contact area. I believe some here have recommended an epoxy soak of endgrain there. The back legs of Adirondacks aren't endgrain like the front legs are, but if you go to the effort to do this step, why not do all the ground ccontact surfaces? Again I have no personal experience.

Hope that helps

Totally agree. I did a cedar strip canoe with my son in the 90s. It was basically fiberglass wrapped and epoxy coated with spar urethane on the few wooden parts and as a top coat for overall uv protection. It held up remarkably well. The maintenance was not overly burdensome. Maybe due to few non-epoxy coated parts that saw wear. But I moved and he sold it so after 2012 we lost track of it. Anyway, my Adirondack will have conventional legs for a “creaky joint/bad back senior”. So I do plan on the epoxy on leg ends and since the patio is concrete, I’ll add plastic leg glides so avoid wear. I’m mostly curious about the water based products I see for exterior use which are new since I last did anything for outside. But I like get others input on what’s worked well for them in related cases.

 

[ChemE75]

When I made outdoor furniture, I used deck stain. I figured if it was good for a deck, it would work for patio furniture. It did. We moved 5 years after I built the furniture, I didn’t bring them with me.

I’ve only used solid color on deck railings that held up fairly well but it’s more like paint. The transparent stain on deck and siding did not hold up well. I am considering a Cabot stain one level below solid color for the prototype chair since it’s just construction lumber. But the next one will be nicer in cedar so want a clear finish. Although I might just opt for using a composite and painting it.

 

[ChemE75]

Henry W makes an excellent point. By far the most durable and low maintenance outdoor finish is high quality exterior paint. Many folks want to preserve the natural appearance of the wood, but when they find out how much time and effort is required over the years to maintain that look, they become less enthusiastic.

With the majority of time spent under the patio roof section, I was figuring if it's not going to be highly abused by the weather then go clear coat. But you got me thinking we may end up in the open exposed area more often, so maybe I’d be better off to use an exterior composite rather than cedar and just paint it.

 

[chris_goris]

With the majority of time spent under the patio roof section, I was figuring if it's not going to be highly abused by the weather then go clear coat. But you got me thinking we may end up in the open exposed area more often, so maybe I’d be better off to use an exterior composite rather than cedar and just paint it.

you can still use cedar and paint it, cedar istill one of the cheapest woods especially in NC. And it lightweight. But you paint make sure to seal the tannins first with shellac. DAMHIK

 

[ChemE75]

you can still use cedar and paint it, cedar istill one of the cheapest woods especially in NC. And it lightweight. But you paint make sure to seal the tannins first with shellac. DAMHIK

Not to be flippant, but it’s pretty obvious anything can be painted. I’m just not a big fan of painting wood unless it’s some utility type thing, or boring wood like the big box “white wood”.

 

[chris_goris]

Not to be flippant, but it’s pretty obvious anything can be painted. I’m just not a big fan of painting wood unless it’s some utility type thing, or boring wood like the big box “white wood”.

Well, unless youre using mahogany, sapele or Teak outdoors, cedar or cypress are very dull appearance wise as far as wood goes. Im certain I can make a cedar or cypress chair or table for far less money using either of those woods than big box "white wood".

 

[ChemE75]

Well, unless youre using mahogany, sapele or Teak outdoors, cedar or cypress are very dull appearance wise as far as wood goes. Im certain I can make a cedar or cypress chair or table for far less money using either of those woods than big box "white wood".

I’ve used some pretty dull boards in nearly every wood I’ve ever used. Some are rich in color but straight boring grain. So maybe a poor choice of words on my part. I didn’t say I was using big box white wood. It was just an example of something I’d be fine painting. Otherwise I prefer not painting. Cedar can look nice with a hint of stain. IMHO. To each his own.

 

[lhmayberry]

Last winter I had requested about outdoor products because I was going to build replacement seats for my pontoon boat.
I got a lot of responses and decided on total boat penetrating epoxies. This worked well for me ,except the cure time on what I used was 24 hours. Using the thickener they suggested helped fill in the nail and screw heads. I finished the boat and got 2 rides on it before spending the last 2 weeks in the hospital with bypass surgery. As soon as I can dump some pictures into the computer I will share with you all

 

[Mike Davis]

Last winter I had requested about outdoor products because I was going to build replacement seats for my pontoon boat.
I got a lot of responses and decided on total boat penetrating epoxies. This worked well for me ,except the cure time on what I used was 24 hours. Using the thickener they suggested helped fill in the nail and screw heads. I finished the boat and got 2 rides on it before spending the last 2 weeks in the hospital with bypass surgery. As soon as I can dump some pictures into the computer I will share with you all

Sorry about your surgery Les. Hope you are well and doing better every day.

 

[ChemE75]

Last winter I had requested about outdoor products because I was going to build replacement seats for my pontoon boat.
I got a lot of responses and decided on total boat penetrating epoxies. This worked well for me ,except the cure time on what I used was 24 hours. Using the thickener they suggested helped fill in the nail and screw heads. I finished the boat and got 2 rides on it before spending the last 2 weeks in the hospital with bypass surgery. As soon as I can dump some pictures into the computer I will share with you all

FWIW, I've had 3 open heart surgeries so I can most definitely empathize - rest, recover and rehab. Mine were mostly valves and related. Thankfully, wood is patient! My small stash of fancy maple shorts and other odds and ends has been with me for almost 40 yrs, 5 surgeries and 7 moves as I've had a lot of life events to divert my attention.

Back when building a canoe when living in Maine, I ended up using RAKA epoxy since it was a fairly new company with attractive pricing. There were no UV additives, it was a pretty bare bones company at the time - I think it was the only product. But was about half the cost of West Marine epoxy that seemed to own the market being the only option at the local marine supplier. I phone ordered the Raka - this was mid-90s so kind of early in the internet e-commerce days - you could find things but online ordering was not that widespread yet. It turned out to be a great epoxy. The canoe came out fantastic but it did require top coating with spar varnish/urethane to get the UV protection. I did 3 coats for a reasonable build up over the epoxy and an extra 2 on the raw wood parts like gunwales and seat frames. It held up surprisingly well. Today, there are a slew of epoxy options for DIY use. Based on most comments here and past experience, I'll probably use an oil based spar varnish/urethane on my chair projects since they won't see frequent water. It was fine for the canoe seat frames, although today, I'd probably opt for an epoxy.

Hope recovery goes swift!