Oneida, Tempest, ClearVue ...

[WoodWrangler]

A cyclone dust collector is in my future, I think ... but WHICH one.

I've heard great things about the ClearVue, Oneida and Tempest ... and they all seem to be strong candidates for my small shop.

My buddy has a ClearVue and likes it, but the total investment was more than some of the "ready out of the box" units -- plus he had to do a lot of the work building other structural components (?) for it. Though he loves the system, is it that much better?

The Tempest has a better price point and claims to be 99.997% (or something) efficient at 1/2 micron or larger stuff.

Don't know as much about Oneida, other than they have been in the business for more than 10 years and have good systems ... a bit more pricey.

I'd like to hear your opinions, pros/cons, and jibber jabber. :eusa_thin

 

[ashley_phil]

IMHO ...ONEIDA is the market leader/creator for the home cyclone systems.

Hence the higher pricepoint.

Tempest like all of the Penn State stuff seems a bit unknown to me and I'm leary of it. I like their prices but wonder if you don't get what you pay for.

I've been eyeing their blade guard for awhile, but I'd sure like to see one. Maybe in Atlanta this summer.

 

[Travis Porter]

I have an Oneida 3 HP Super Gorrilla with the 55 gallon fiber (translate cardboard) drum. It is all steel, and is built extremely well IMO. I didn't have to make anything for it, It came with everything needed to mount it, and I didn't have to buy anything or do any modifications to get it running. The main inlet is 8" round and was fully adjustable. Mine came with a key chain remote so that was another plus for me.

The noise level on the thing was a bit shocking. I don't think this is unique to Oneida, but moving up from a Jet DC-1200 there is no comparison. With the Jet I rarely wore hearing protection when using it with say the tablesaw. With the cyclone, when I run it, I wear hearing protection.


There is only one thing I am not crazy about with my Oneida. It is yellow.

 

[Jim Murphy]

Ya know, this is a tough question. If you're comparing other things, like bandsaws, you can be aware that your ElCheapo has horrible blade drift and a wiggly-waggly table and fence, whereas the MiniMax you test drove during a shop visit exhibited none of those symptons. You can tell that the Oneway doesn't think about slowing down or vibrating, while your Chaiwan special bogs and shakes like a (insert your favorite simile here). But with a dust collector...

First, there's so much involved. The duct size, layout, quality of installation, location, diameter and reductions, type of flex hoses, and on and on and on. I may be wrong, but I think that you can observe the efficiency of the ABC cyclone that's perfectly installed, and the inefficiency of the XYZ cyclone that's pretty jiggered up with Tees and skinny pipes and conclude that ABC is head and shoulders above XYZ, when it really ain't.

Second, I'd be shocked to hear that someone purchased a Brand X, hated it, dumped it on CL or EB, and purchased a Brand Y (and I'm not talking HF dust pump vs cyclone, I'm talking about Cyclone X and Cyclone Y).

So, comparisons fall to the WW mags who can afford to hook the competing blowers to the same duct system and measure things.

 

[Jim Murphy]

There is only one thing I am not crazy about with my Oneida. It is yellow.

Perhaps with my gallon of Powermatic Gold and your Fuji, we can cure that problem. Right after we unload the Invicta.

 

[PurpleThumb]

Love my Clearvue!!! Operating for several months now. Very little work to do to set it up and I like having it out of the way hanging on a wall rather than taking up floor space. Worth the slight extra effort and scraps to build it. Through an error on my part, (stupid, stupid), I needed another part. I had it in one day and they didn't charge me for it. Ed and his group are really great people and he has a real concern for his customers which seems to get more rare in our society every day(of course the competition is somewhere in China and Ed is just across the border in South Carolina). The Clearvue I bought is 5HP with remotes, 6" blast gates, canister filters, etc. and I can breathe in my much cleaner shop for a change without the use of a respirator. the only problem I have is keeping small tools away from intakes. IMHO Clearvue is the only choice.

 

[PeteM]

I assume you checked out:

http://www.billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

If not go straight there - do not pass go . . .

pete

 

[PurpleThumb]

Another plus for Clearvue is that Bill Pentz works with ED and gets a cut on each cyclone.

 

[PeteM]

I forgot to mention that Bill is very responsive (and thorough) to email questions.

His addr is;
bpentz@cnets.net

You have to put:
"Customer Dust Collection Question"
in the title to make it through his filters.

pete

 

[McRabbet]

As you may know, I have a ClearVue, too (there are several members besides Purple Thumb with one, including Dino Drosas, Fernhollowman and Trog777). I have not installed it because I injured my shoulder shortly after I bought it and will complete its installation after my surgery on 2/13 and subsequent rehab. But a few days ago, I visited Purple Thumb (Jerry Grant) to see his installation, since I knew he was very happy with his and I thought seeing it could benefit my planned install. It did benefit me -- Jerry has a 2-car garage shop with plenty of good sawdust producers and he showed me how efficiently the CV works to keep it cleaner. Like me, he uses 6" PVC S&D duct and despite his bum knee (he is having knee replacement surgery this coming week), he installed his CV and ductwork alone. He and I also went to visit ClearVue Cyclones in Pickens, SC with another WNCWA member last Fall (see this thread for lots of good pics and some performance confirmation). Ed Morgano then came to the November meeting of the Western NC Woodworkers Association and demonstrated the small shopvac model (CV06) they sell (see this video). He also delivered two CV1800's -- one for Jerry and one for me.

How did we arrive at choosing ClearVue? Simple. We looked thoroughly at the mountain of information available on Bill Pentz's website on Dust Collection. I browsed several woodworking forums like Woodnet and SMC for user commentary and discovered, perhaps not surprisingly, that folks are passionate about the topic. I looked at Grizzly, Oneida, Penn State and JDs site info. But I always came back to the conclusion that Pentz is right and with the hands-on demonstration at ClearVue, I was convinced that the CV implementation was excellent and well supported by the company. After I read the comparison that Oneida has on their website and a fresh review several threads on SMC, I felt I could not believe some of the info from Oneida. IMHO, their testing was biased and found that they have refused to allow the owner of ClearVue to buy their product for testing. Enough said. I'm looking forward to mine, but in your research, be sure to check with other owners of these units (Alan in Little Washington has an Oneida and Doug Robinson just installed a PSI Tempest).

Sorry for the length of this post, but you are facing a big decision. PM me if you want more info.

 

[Alan in Little Washington]

Rob, I don't own an Oneida! You are forgiven.

I own a Pentz designed, SchaffterCrafted 3:1 cyclone (as opposed to a 1.64:1 like most cyclones) that uses an old 3 Hp Griz blower. Mine is configured in a non-traditional "push-through" mode which means the dust, etc. hits the blower first then is "pushed" into the cyclone, unlike most (all?) other units where the motor/blower sits on top of the cyclone and "pulls" air through the cyclone- I won't waste your time with of discussion of the benefits of one over the other here.

Performance-wise, in order of most efficient and effective, I would rank the ClearVue #1, the Oneida #2, and the PSI a distant third (or possibly fourth if you throw a Grizzly into the mix). The Clearvue has all the refinements that make it a better unit- angled inlet, internal spiral inlet ramp, etc. I believe the Onieda is basically a scaled-down commercial unit without the nuances required by the physics of a smaller cyclone. I also think both the Oneida and PSI only have a "neutral vane" which means the inlet continues into the upper cylinder to/and is tangent to the internal central outlet pipe- which improves cyclonic flow. The Clearvue takes this one step further, a super neutral vane, by using a spiral inlet ramp to improve the cyclonic flow. Someone was selling a cyclone only unit on Ebay based on the old Wood Magazine plans that had neither neutral vane or spiral inlet ramp- when queried about that he basically shrugged "a what?"- a questionable design by a questionable vendor!

If you are looking for a "plug and play" unit Oneida comes the closest. If you don't mind a little assembly, go with Clearvue.

Or, if you really want to save some $$, buy some 24 gauge galvanized sheet metal (about $40 worth) and make your own cyclone as I did from Bill Pentz's plans/spread sheet. My blower has a "true" 3 hp motor and a sturdy 14" steel impeller that I got off Ebay a few years back. I purchased my cartridge filters from Wynn Environmental. My total cost, excluding 6" PVC S&D ductwork, was under $400. What is that expression about sucking the chrome off a trailer hitch:-D:-D:-D

 

[McRabbet]

Rob, I don't own an Oneida! You are forgiven.

I own a Pentz designed, SchaffterCrafted 3:1 cyclone (as opposed to a 1.64:1 like most cyclones) that uses an old 3 Hp Griz blower. <snip> What is that expression about sucking the chrome off a trailer hitch:-D:-D:-D

Sorry Alan, my bad! :slap: Actually, I'm happy to see that you've confirmed my reliance on Mr. Pentz's wisdom!

 

[Bas]

Jibber jabber - I can do that! First of all, I have a trashcan, a HF DC and 4" pipe, so this is opinion, not experience.

I've done a lot of research on this topic, here's my simplified view:
- Moving air is about having a big motor and a big impeller. This is not that complicated a component. Bigger is better.
- The cyclone separates the chips and dust from the air. A good cyclone separates 98% of the dust. A great cyclone will separate 99%. Neither affects air quality, it affects how often you have to clean your filter (and filter lifespan). The best filter is no filter -vent it outside. Optionally, make a bypass so you can use a filter during those weeks when it's very hot or very cold outside.
- The layout of your duct work is very important. Every split and corner affects the air flow. You may need to reorganize your workshop yet again. Don't make any pipes smaller than 6" - even at the tool.
- Finally, and this is the piece that's almost never mentioned: No matter how good your DC, it doesn't mean squat if you don't modify your tools. It doesn't matter if you hang a jet engine off your table saw, that ZCI will not let any dust through. An overhead guard with DC is essential. Likewise, you will probably need to enlarge the hood on your planer and jointer, and add a dust pickup to the band saw. All the other stuff is irrelevant if you can't get the dust into the system to begin with. And I have yet to see good solutions for a miter saw and lathe. And by good I mean "good enough to notice the differences in cyclone choice".

I would not feel bad about wanting a "turn key" system, and not having to build too many components....especially if that means you'll spend more time modifying your tools. I find this woodworking stuff hard enough as it is without adding in DC construction.

 

[Alan in Little Washington]

For someone with a trashcan separator, Bas pretty much hit the nail on the head :-D:-D:-D

One other issue, most any cyclone (including a trashcan) will separate out most of the chips and some fine dust, but you need a good cyclone and really good filters to remove the fine- most dangerous- dust. Too many people (including me to a certain degree) approach dust collection from a cleanliness perspective as opposed to a (lung) safety perspective. In this regard Bas' comments about discharging outside and good dust pickup at the machine are also right on!

 

[WoodWrangler]

Here's a question ... if you discharge outside (which I should have the option), how do you keep air in the shop (or in my case, garage)? My fear is that with the garage door closed and dust collector on that I'll suck all of the conditioned air out of the house thus leaving the family a bit chilly.

 

[Bas]

Eh...you don't. You will need to think about replenishing air, especially if you have any kind of combustion going on in your house for heat or hot water. A simple option is to open a window in the garage. That's why I mentioned the "bypass" option, so you can use a filter inside the garage during those weeks when it's 100 or 20 degrees, and vent outside when the temperature is reasonable.

I rarely run my DC longer than a minute or so, just enough for a few cuts or passes along the jointer. If you plan to run your cyclone for a long time, then air loss can definitely be a concern. Of course, you could use the chips, shavings and dust captured by the cyclone to stoke the fireplace! That will keep your family nice and warm.

 

[junquecol]

I have one of the Wood Magazine Cyclones. In workshops and other places, I have built over fifty of these. Have one in Texas and another in Richmond VA, that I built. I use the 6" X 65" felt socks from Onedia, instead of a cannister filter. Unfortunately, or not, mine doesn't have a neutral vane installed. It is made, but not installed. When and if I take it apart, I will install neutral vane. The socks catch what the cyclone passes. Upon shut down, they deflate, and slake off fines into plentium on the bottom of assembly. I have had to clean plentium out a couple of times. Once was when I was running a molding head making some siding for a customer, and just plain forgot to keep a check on dust bin. The blower on top is a Cincinnatti Fan, 10", 1 HP unit. The only thing I would change is to buy two identical trash cans for the dust bins. This way, I could swap out an empty for a full, and only empty full once. Now I have to empty it into outside trash can. Then empty trash can at dumpsters.

 

[Will2]

A little note about Bill Pentz. I made up my mind that I wanted a DC. HAd no idea who Bill was. Found his site searching the web and confirmed that just blowing my dust outside was a cool idea. I went to HF and got the 2hp unit. Like most do I posted a DC question on a WW site and got so many different answers that I was so messed up I wanted to just sell everything and go fishing. Then i went back and Emailed Bill. I told him what I had the number of lathes and saws i had, how many feet etc. and that i was just going to cut a hole in the wall and blow it out in the pasture. This Man didn't know me from Adam. took time out of his day and explained to me exactly what i had paid for. gave me "REAL" test specs for it and went into great detail explaining to me the concept of dust collection. He explained to me the advantages in duct size ver run length and also explained the expected change in amp draw with each. Not once did he try to steer me to a ClearVue, Understanding what my concerns were he stated that he felt the HF would perform to my satisfaction if I installed as he instructed and checked my amp draw. Now to me that shows character, top level. I took the HF unit back unopened. I'm looking for a 230 vlt 12" or so blower now. I can't really utilize a clearvue in my location now but you can bet money If I build a new shop I'll have one.

 

[Alan in Little Washington]

Here's a question ... if you discharge outside (which I should have the option), how do you keep air in the shop (or in my case, garage)? My fear is that with the garage door closed and dust collector on that I'll suck all of the conditioned air out of the house thus leaving the family a bit chilly.

If you don't run your DC continuously, then loss of heated/cooled air is not a big deal. The mass of your shop and contents- walls, floor, machines, etc. retains BTU's and will quickly warm or cool the air that replaces what is sucked out. It is similar to opening and closing your refrigerator door.

The biggest problem with discharging outside is if you have a gas/oil furnace or hot water heater in the same space- the discharge causes reverse flow in the flu and you get dangerous/deadly flu gases in the shop.

The problem with filters is they restrict some flow, even the best bags allow some dust to get through and actually filter best when caked with dust, again reducing flow- the idea is to achieve the best flow to collect as much dust at the source and of course not pumping it back into the shop.

 

[WoodWrangler]

Holy information overload batman :drunken_s. This is good :eyeslam:

With the service level Bill provides and the clear (no pun intended) commitment of ClearVue customers ... I'm thinking that might be the way to go.

While I don't like the idea of the 6" duct work, it looks like I'll have to get over that because they are all apparently using that larger size. (I don't like the bulky size of it running all over the shop and the need for adapters for just about every tool)

Alan - I do have a water heater in a closet in my garage ... so that might an issue, eh? I guess I just need to commit to not leaving the vacuum on when not in use.