New table saw advice

[ChemE75]

My primary input has not changed. I think all woodworkers except possibly those who will only do small crafty type things should start with a track saw and not a table saw. They are safer, cheaper (although there is a wide range of prices just like table saws), and much easier to do accurate work with on large pieces of solid wood or sheet goods. Handling is far easier for big bits too which tends to turn into accuracy. I will also say that people who cannot get accurate results with a track saw need some more tips on how to use it. They will do extremely accurate work, equal to a table saw. But not on really small pieces of wood.

I bought a table saw first like most of us, however. Festools might have existed then but no track saws in my price range were available. I've always used 110V saws and the only limitation I see with them is your blade needs to be clean and sharp and appropriate for what you are doing. If you do that, you can cut 3+ inches of hardwood with a 1/8th kerf blade as I have done many times. Wood that warps back into the blade can be an issue but that and using an appropriate blade are the only issues I've experienced in at least 4 decades of experience. Universal motors (motors with brushes) are noisier and their speed is not as constant but I used a Ryobi BT3100 for over a decade which is a belt drive universal motor saw with a good fence. An induction motor is my preference but I would not choose the saw on that basis. I would choose the saw based upon the fence. It is one of the best features of my PCS (Sawstop) and was a major reason I used the Ryobi for so long. Being able to set the fence based upon a scale or a measurement of one end of the fence and lock it down and know that it will be parallel to the blade is very, very nice. If you are willing to give that up and check both ends of the fence and fiddle with it for each cut a lot of saws could work. I would not. You can check the fence on a display model but most will be badly setup. If the store will let you adjust it and then see if it will stay parallel it would be worth doing in my opinion.

I read your earlier post on track saws but it’s not for me. I do more small work than large. Solid wood more than sheet stock. Can’t recall last time I had a 4x8 sheet to cut, probably 20 yrs ago. Long boards I normally cut close with circ saw then fine tune on table saw. Most work is for drawers, door rails and stiles, flat or raised panels, face frames, tenons, although I can do those on router table as well. Don’t glue up anything large very often. The last was a cherry headboard in FL a couple winters ago, and with care was able to joint the boards for glue up and trim it up all on the Bosch job site saw. Don’t have much on my project list for large panels. Agree on blades, all sharpened before moving to FL over 10 yrs ago where I did very little beyond building the guitar, the bed and some closet shelving. I do love my Forrest blades, the hi-atb laminate blade I kept from my VT shop days sees limited use, the woodworker ll was a gift from my dad when I took over the shop in VT and I save it for finish cuts. I have a good rip blade and a combo for general work. FWIW, back in my more active years renovating an old house, I only had 110 and my old unisaw did just fine with 1.5 hp motor, although somehow it seems those old motors created more torque. I didn’t even have a dedicated circuit so if it was winter, I had to turn off my electric heater when running the saw. I eventually got a kerosene heater so could work in shop more often since winter is half a year up there. I definitely agree on the fence. The Bosch is decent but I do check it for each setup just to be sure, I need to clean the rear rail since it chatters a bit when sliding to position, not sure I’ll ever get out of that habit for checking every setup.

 

[bob vaughan]

I keep popping in on this thread to see what Jay A got and how he likes it.

 

[ChemE75]

I keep popping in on this thread to see what Jay A got and how he likes it.

I found this thread looking for reviews of the r4560 - saw @JayA was considering it vs a dewalt jobsite but changed to consider the ridged or delta 36-725t2. Meanwhile pretty near zero direct answers to the question or actual user experience of either, lots of educated opinions and experience with similar saws. Unfortunately no info from Jay. From my research so far, all reviews of either seem like both are near identical, decent for hobbyist needs but maybe not the quality for a serious side biz or high level of woodworking. I’ve seen some older used versions for $300 ish, but the prior ridged has aluminum fence rails prone to warping and trunion issues that seem risky and the delta has the motor issue which may be fixed by now and covered by warranty but warranty doesn’t extend to used machines. Those selling recent versions have been asking too much. Why spend $500-$600 for used with no warranty and no delivery. I’ll probably wait to see if either goes on sale.

 

[ChemE75]

If any one is interested I bought the Ridgid R4560. HD offers discounted pricing if picking-up from in stock inventory at a store. NW Raleigh had a few in stock. So with discount pricing plus $50 discount for getting their credit card, the price was too attractive to pass up. Just had to figure out pickup. Turns out location is only 3-4 miles further than the closest HD in Wake Forest, so rented one of their vans. I was able to inspect box for damage and all looked ok. Two guys loaded it into the van without a fork truck which gave me some confidence my wife and I could unload it. Backing up to the garage, I remembered unloading a packrat moving pod when we moved in last fall - I made a makeshift ramp with some scrap wood. So I set a couple of short 2x10 sections at the rear door of van as ramps. My wife just needed to hold them from slipping until I got the box weight onto them.

I also recalled my engineering background, so grabbed a few 4’ x 3/4” dowels I had in the shop to use as rollers. Hardest part was lifting end of box to get the dowels in place to start rolling box out. The rest was a breeze.

Initial impression is generally very good. Wheeled base works great. Overall feels well made and robust. Two minor flaws are easily fixed: the stamped steel wings are not the most precise I’ve ever seen, I prefer them over the rippled surface of my original 80s delta saw, but not as sturdy or precise as the cast iron of my old unisaw. However add ons or replacements will be easier. For these, I may need to slightly grind the mounting holes a fraction oval to allow for better leveling with the main surface. I may eventually replace them so not a big deal. Second issue is the joint of the fence front guide rail tube creates a very slight ridge you can feel as the fence slides. To minimize any wear, I’ll take my dremel and grind it perfectly smooth. It actually could be replaced with a single length of square tubing, drilled and tapped to mount. But it’ll be fine as is for now.

So far setup adjustments have been straight forward and seem to hold position well. Generally adjustment access appears to be well thought out. So far fence seems to stay square and parallel and checking blade parallel to miter slot looks to be set correctly, no dial indicator but looks to be within my ability to measure to 1/10 of a mm which is roughly 1/250 of an inch or 4/1000. If it ever seems off, I’ll get a dial indicator to use to adjust it. First miter gauge that’s come with a saw I bought that has adjustments to to eliminate slop in the slot. The set screws seem to work ok although I prefer the nylon split washers that expand when tightened on my old incra. The set screws feel loose, so I’ll add a drop of loctite to better hold position. Next up I need to check the steel miter slot bars I’ve used in the past for jigs, sleds, etc.

Today I’ll start making saw dust!

 

[JimD]

Congratulations Tom. Seems like you made a good decision. I doubt this is still an issue but I remember old reviews of the Rigid saw (probably a predecessor) that would change the angle of the blade to the top of the table when the height was adjusted. I doubt it is an issue with yours but it might be something to check as you complete setup.

 

[ChemE75]

Congratulations Tom. Seems like you made a good decision. I doubt this is still an issue but I remember old reviews of the Rigid saw (probably a predecessor) that would change the angle of the blade to the top of the table when the height was adjusted. I doubt it is an issue with yours but it might be something to check as you complete setup.

Yes, read similar. Pretty sure it was a trunion issue in some older models that wouldn’t lock in place. It’s why I quickly stopped considering an older used machine. I’m pretty anal about double/triple checking so I’ll be looking for any kind of slippage, drifting, etc.

 

[Rwe2156]

I've been through several table saws. Bottom line to me if it doesn't have a cast iron trunnion attached to a cabinet, and a Biesmeyer type fence, it's gonna be what it's gonna be. Motor type and power is a whole nother issue.

Not meaning to rain on anybody's parade, and I know there are issues with the Ridgid, Delta saws, once you figure out the limitations relative to the type of work you do, it will or won't work out.

 

[ChemE75]

Well, I got the R4560. Had to rent van to get it home but at $399, with the HD credit card discount essentially paying for the van rental, it was the right price at right time and after using the saw for a few days cutting some old pallet 2x lumber to raise my bench and some misc lumber, I can definitely say it is plenty of saw for my needs. It is a significant upgrade over the job site saw. Yellow pine is not the toughest thing I’ll ever toss at it, but it cut with ease and accuracy - setup was fair easy, although a bit time consuming since I ran through 2-3x to be sure I can rely on fence squareness and blade to miter slot parallel-ness. Frankly, I never had a fence I could slide, lock and trust. So far I’ve semi- trusted this one and so far no errors. But it’s not furniture grade work yet. That will be coming. No illusions as to pro shop worthy. It could help someone just starting out to do quality work for some period of time but it’s clearly not designed to be a daily workhorse like a unisaw type. Meanwhile for my personal needs, this saw is a vast improvement over the ancient unisaw I last owned and completely blows away the jobsite saw I recently had.

 

[Kelly]

SawStop !!!

 

[ChemE75]

SawStop !!!View attachment 231381

50 years using power tools and working in chemical plants with far more dangerous equipment and not a single nick. My safety methods and the way I approach any tool don’t need to rely on a tool thinking for me.

 

[drw]

50 years using power tools and working in chemical plants with far more dangerous equipment and not a single nick. My safety methods and the way I approach any tool don’t need to rely on a tool thinking for me.

Tom, congratulations on your accident free longevity, very impressive. I have no doubts about the fact that your accident free status is the result of your caution and your approach to the situations and tools needed for the tasks. That said, I know of a few folks who would say that they too are very aware of the dangers associated with various tools and are very cautious in the situations employing those tools; and yet they have experienced accidents. As for me, I certainly do not view my Sawstop as "...thinking for me" and I know using it does not negate the need for safety, it simply offers an additional measure protection should something unforeseen occur.

 

[Kelly]

Well said, Donn. I have been woodworking for 28 years, all power tools. Never had more than a bandaid injury until one day….."

 

[ChemE75]

Tom, congratulations on your accident free longevity, very impressive. I have no doubts about the fact that your accident free status is the result of your caution and your approach to the situations and tools needed for the tasks. That said, I know of a few folks who would say that they too are very aware of the dangers associated with various tools and are very cautious in the situations employing those tools; and yet they have experienced accidents. As for me, I certainly do not view my Sawstop as "...thinking for me" and I know using it does not negate the need for safety, it simply offers an additional measure protection should something unforeseen occur.

Yes, stuff can happen but those without the funds to afford the top of line safeguards can stay safe by being extra vigilant. It’s not a saw stop or nothing proposition as many suggest.

 

[bowman]

Yes, stuff can happen but those without the funds to afford the top of line safeguards can stay safe by being extra vigilant. It’s not a saw stop or nothing proposition as many suggest.

Agreed, #1 safety rule is to not be running power tools when tired or distracted.

 

[JimD]

I have a sawstop but didn't have a table saw injury until I got it. I don't think I got complacent because it was a sawstop I just made a bad decision to raise a block I was using to hold the throat plate in place while the saw was still running. I was making the opening for a 3/4 dado stack. I should have clamped it in place or at least turned the saw off and let the blade stop before I lifted the block. The sawstop certainly did not prevent what I consider a serious injury (broken bone, at least 6 stiches some permanent damage) but it did prevent amputation.

The only way I think the SawStop contributed is the extra work to switch to a different blade brake for the dado stack. The saw had to be cleaned out a bit for this to occur and the process used up (wasted?) some time. So maybe I then got in a bit of a hurry. I do not believe SawStops are anywhere close to the perfect table saw but I do think the safety technology is worthwhile if you can afford it. It can be annoying at times but still I think it's useful. I think SawStop could do a better job of simplifying the switchover to a dado stack. The process is inherently time consuming and making you partially disassemble the saw to change the cartridge does not help anything. The switch to turn the system off to prevent nuisance triggering is another area ripe for improvement. It just is not a perfect saw but it is a good saw with a useful safety system.

 

[ChemE75]

I got nothing against those who use saw stops or the brand. It’s great if you can afford it. But I hear too many who see no other option can be safe for anyone, ever. To be fair, it is far more prevalent on other Facebook groups which I’m frequenting less and less. I’ve found most here on NCWW tend to the practical side and can see a variety of viewpoints. It has been a minority pushing the sawstop. My pet peeve is when someone says they got a $600 budget and are looking for contractor type saw suggestions. Then the sawstop crowd chimes in with their suggestion to spend 3-4x their budget, borrow it if you have to. I can’t afford it, and I’m not going into debit for what is now my hobby. I empathize with others in my budget range. No amount of gross photos or testimonials will change my budget. Thankfully I grew up in an industry where safety became a priority when I was young enough for it to sink in.