Rikon 10-345 design flaw question

[timd]

Hey guys,

I'm new to the forum, but I have been reviewing all of this Rikon design flaw info. I had my checkbook in my hand yesterday getting ready to purchase one from Woodcraft due to the 10% off sale presently going on. All of this made me hesitate - not saying I bought all of it yet - but I hesitated.

I went to Woodcraft today to do two things: Get a look at the the new tension system and ask the main guy there if has heard of any issues. I have done business with him for some time and I trust his opinions - he has always appeared to be honest with me.

I have looked at the saw and the photos within this this forum in the explanation of this issue posted here - not sure I agree yet. My thoughts as follows. Rikon has moved the cam from above to below and the cam is a different style - thus requiring a horizontal swinging handle versus thte vertical one on the 340 version. There was some discussion about whether the spring was in tension or compression because of where this cam is if I understood correctly. I would actually like to get another look at the saw, but I don't think the cam location has anything to do with that. The cam appears to simply move that entire black assembly (housing the spring) up and down releasing and applying tension. This happens whether the cam is above or below the wheel - doesn't it? The cam actually moves the black frame up and down and the spring is along for the ride it seems. It's just a way to quickly drop the wheel without having to crank the tension handle/wheel below. Again I want to get another look and I will admit if I am wrong here - but I don't think the position of the cam here has changed the resulting tension or compression in the spring. I did notice that the new cam makes the upper wheel twist slightly when the tension release is pulled back and forth where the old cam wouldn't appear to cause this, but I have never touched the 340 design either - so I am assuming.

I don't know enough to comment on the tracking problems so I won't dispute the fact that someone had an issue with the 345 design. I'm just trying to understand this as I am seriously considering purchasing the 345 and I am not sold that there is a design flaw yet.

My friend at Woodcraft said he hasn't heard any complaints on this issue. I know you will say he sells them, so why would he be honest - maybe so. But I trust him to some degree and he has stood behind everything he has sold - whether good or bad. His is just another opinion to me in this case. He also gave me the support number for Rikon as I suggested I wanted to quiz them about this. I may give them a call tomorrow.

Anyone have any more recent experience with this - confirming or denying the presence of a flaw in the design?

Thanks,
Tim

 

[SteveColes]

Monty, oh Monty, you need to handle this one:eusa_danc

 

[sapwood]

Welcome to the forum Tim! And we always enjoy a well posited question :-D I look forward to responses.

Don't forget to introduce yourself on the "Who We Are" forum. It's a warm and friendly bunch of folks that enjoys woodworking, sharing, and fun :mrgreen:

Roger

 

[D L Ames]

Tim, welcome to NCWW. Chuck (cpowell) I believe was the member who discovered the issue with the 10-345. I have the 10-340 and have not had any problems with it. I am sure Chuck will be able to give you more detailed information on the issues he had with the 10-345 before he returned it to Woodcraft. Tom (Toolferone), the manager of the Woodcraft in Raleigh may also be able to give you some insight into any additional issues, if any, raised by other customers.

D L

 

[Monty]

Welcome, Tim. It's kind of hard to describe what the problem seems to be. I have never looked at the 10-345 personally, but Chuck (cpowell) had one in his shop. He took the pics that are on my web site.

Basically, you have to understand how bandsaws track. You track the blade by changing the tilt of the upper wheel slightly, using the tracking adjust screw from behind. That screw pushes the spring assembly, and the entire spring assembly pivots in or out, changing slightly the axis of rotation of that top wheel. You can see the pivot point here:

On my bandsaw, if you change the tracking adjust, the whole spring assembly (black) moves a little, just like a swing, and you can see the bottom spring tension adjust wheel swinging in or out. In order to adjust tracking while the blade is under tension, the assembly needs to swing freely. This is not the case with the new design:

To me it looks like that cam pushes down on a fixed point on the saw's frame, so the assembly cannot move freely when the blade is under tension. Best I can understand it, that is why Chuck had problems with his. I would also love to hear from someone who is happy with the design. Chuck's experience is the only one I personally know of. It would be nice to be able to recommend that new saw, because it has a nicer trunion than my saw.

The test you need to do in the store is to tension up the blade fully, then see if you can adjust the tracking. You should be able to easily make the top wheel tilt in or out while the blade is under tension. On my saw, this is easy to do. When I'm finished with the task, I can de-tension the blade, and when I come back to use the saw again it always tracks properly when I flip the tension lever back (I don't have to re-adjust it, although I always check anyway). Chuck said he was definitely not able to do that.

 

[timd]

Thanks for the reply Monty. I will look a little closer at this when I revisit the store. I really want to see if this truly a problem since I had settled on purchasing this saw until reading all of this information.

More to follow.....

Tim

 

[timd]

Monty,

I performed the check you suggested on the Rikon saw. I tensioned the blade fully and turned the tracking adjustment. Under various levels of tension, the tracking adjustment seemed to do what it was intended. I could the see wheel and black assembly swing in and out - thus adjusting the tracking while under tension.

I see the argument that is being made about the point on the frame that must allow the black assembly to slide while under tension. However, it appears to work. I would love to get my head inside the old design and twist the knobs on it and see how it operates first hand to make the comparison - but I don't anyone that has one locally.

I am certainly questioning whether this is a "design flaw" now based on what I saw in Woodcraft this evening. Have you looked at one first hand?

Tim

 

[Monty]

Interesting. I have not seen this in person, nor tried to adjust tracking on a new one. If you have not seen cpowell's thread, take a look at it here. His problem was that he could not get reproducible results. He found that he had to de-tension to adjust tracking, then when he re-tensioned the tracking was off again! On mine, I routinely de-tension, then come back days/weeks later and re-tension and start cutting with little or no tracking adjust.

Like I said, Chuck's exerience and explanation is all I have to go by. I hate to criticize a nice machine based on a single isolated exerience, but I think it's important to point out the design differences. None of the published reviews of the Rikon (as far as I am aware) were on the 345 - they were all on the 340. Like I stated on my web site, IMHO they are no longer exactly the same machine as you read about in the reviews. It may work just fine for most, but Chuck didn't seem to think so. Of course he now has a MiniMax in his shop, so that should tell you what his expectations are.... :lol:

 

[timd]

Hey Monty,

Point made. And I'm not trying to pick on Chuck. When I purchase equipment, I look for opinions, then I try to figure out if those opinions are fact or if I agree with them. This was the FIRST major negative feedback I heard on the Rikon saw. Like I said I was ready to buy on Sunday - it made me hesitate - so I had to go see for myself and ask more questions.

I can't comment on repeatability as the unit was not operational in the store.

As many as Woodcraft says that they sell, you'd think some others would comment on whether they have had similar problems. Woodcraft saysthat it is one of the fastest moving large power tools in the store yet they have not had any complaints on the same issue.

Appreciate the discussion.

Tim

 

[NCPete]

perhaps Chuck got one that was intended for the craftsman line???:lol:

 

[JohnsonMBrandon]

perhaps Chuck got one that was intended for the craftsman line???:lol:

I am guessing you guys already know that Rikon and the Craftsman are actually made in the same factory. I can't speak for the 18" saw, but the 14" Craftsman actually has a few better features than the 14" Rikon. Same exact saw, except the craftsman comes with cast iron wheels, and a fence, where the Rikon doesn't.