Danger, I just had a thought.

[tvrgeek]

Watched the new Rob Cosman video updating his offset dovetail marking method. Nifty. He now sells the little jig, but it is not cheap.
Well, I have one of those little sliding Kerrmakers. Seems it would be easy to set it to match your saw kerf. Will experiment in the morning.

I also have some nylon blocks. I think I could make one on my Jointmaster. Thin slice and sand to tune.

 

[Graywolf]

You know the object here is to sell product and the next big idea to remove skill from the equation. He is right about the quality of your tools needing to be good. The most important tool is the person cutting the dovetails. Why not simply practice and build skill to go straight from the saw. All these new fangled gadgets are starting to remind me of Tin Cup .

 

[Rwe2156]

I think there’s too much ado about perfect dovetails, guys. Love the guy but on DT’s he’s just a little too anal for me.

I saw one guy he deliberately oversaws a few tails just a little, to prove they are hand cut. Re-scribing the gauge line is another one.

Ever looked at some antiques, especially the DT’s in the back of a drawer? They we’re relegated to the apprentices, and even the masters more or less hacked out the ones that didn’t show.

It was also very common to oversaw 1/2 blinds on the inside face of the front.

We used to stay at various B&B’s in Savannah and Charleston, my wife used to laugh at me pulling out drawers, looking at backs of the antique furniture. But I leaned a lot, and one of those things was they paid 90% of their attention to the facade.

 

[creasman]

@tvrgeek Scott, I assume you're referring to Rob's marking knife with the saw blade? See, Rob Cosman's Dovetail Marking Knife Plus Regular & 3/4 Saw Tooth Blades.

I'm gonna side with Scott on this one -- basing my argument that Rob's device does speed up cutting accurate pins. If you are a tails-first dovetailer, then you probably use the tails to mark the pins. Whether you do this with a pencil, knife or Rob's mini-saw it takes the same amount of time. The advantage of Rob's device is that you've also created a small channel to start your saw that is very accurate.

Having experimented with both ways I honestly prefer this approach over using a knife. I don't have one of Rob's tools, so I did my test using the end of the dovetail saw to mark them. It's awkward to hold, but you get the same effect. Based on this I've also thought about making one of these mini-saw marking tools. It's just a small saw blade with a handle. The key is to make the blade the same thickness as your dovetail saw. One improvement would be to file an offset in the butt of the knife the same thickness as the blade, then use this as a gauge when aligning the tail piece before marking.

@tvrgeek If you do make one, post pictures. I'll do the same if/when I get around to it as well.

 

[tvrgeek]

Still hand cut. Still laid out buy eye. Still the goal of strait from the saw. ( not there on the bottoms yet but I found my mothers old fret saw from when she was in OT school, so I can practice with it instead of the coping saw). Just to help marking, as in transferring tails to pins more accurate. I am getting much better cutting where I intend, this is to help with where I intend.

I have not mastered half blinds yet. Next project.

And yes, moving to hand tools you learn what needs to be precise, and what does not. A lot does not. Just did 32 M&T joints for a Craftsman inspired table. Gaps look perfect. Pull one out and they are all only good enough. Taking the advice, no glue on the slats. This also helps in pre-finishing things as it is sure a lot easier to do disassembled.

Never thought scribe lines looked good. At least not on the face where you see them.

I have several pieces of 19th century Chinese provincial furniture. They knew a lot about only good enough as lots of recycled materials and very limited tools. They understood durability as this stuff is all over 100 years old and strong as new. Palace furniture was more on the perfect side, but way out of my budget. Good to go to a museum and see some as the craftsmanship can blow you away. Denver had a few pieces.

 

[tvrgeek]

I found a cheap mini saw and cut it down to be similar to Rob's expensive marking saw. Only tried it once, but it seems to work.

 

[creasman]

Here's my version of Rob's marking saw. I used part of an old saw plate that is the same thickness as my dovetail saw. The handle is ash. Brass rivets are peened to hold the blade tight. It works pretty well.

 

[Rwe2156]

I mark with a pencil and I think I do pretty good hand cut dt's if I could say so.

If I were using a knife, I'd to the tape trick. I just don't see what the fuss it about.

 

[Mike Davis]

So here is what I don't understand. You are cutting the outside edge of the pin so it will be smaller than needed to fill the space between the tails. How is this accurate in any way?

 

[creasman]

You're missing a subtle point. Before marking the pins you align the tail piece such that it's shifted left by the thickness of the blade. You then mark the right side of each pin. Next, shift the tail piece so it is offset to the right and mark all the left sides.

If you look carefully in the photo you can see the offset of the top piece at the right side. It doesn't line up flush with the pin piece. That is the key to making this approach work.

I've been cutting dovetails for years by first cutting out the tails, then using a knife to mark the pins. After trying Rob's approach I like it better. Roy Underhill demonstrated this method as one approach in the joinery class I took at the Woodwright's school (probably 10+ years ago now). However, it's much harder to do if you're trying to use the toe of your saw rather than this simplified marking blade.

 

[Dee2]

I need a project and a class to learn this stuff.

 

[Tarhead]

Kevin Glen-Drake created a tool for doing this with a piece of steel the width of your saw kerf. You burnished a burr on the point and it scraped a neat channel precisely where it needed to be to get the cut started. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/Glen-Drake-Technique.pdf

 

[Oka]

Richard is right - The user's skill is most everything required to cut dove tails or anything else. The tool's quality improves the repeatability speed and reduces the user's fatigue. Case in point, I saw a guy on you tube cutting dove tails with a back saw ... everyone came out near perfect. Nothing beats the user's skill and eye.

 

[tvrgeek]

There are 100 ways to do something. Most of them work. Pick one.
My thought was for those interested in Cosman's method to do so economically.

Gene, there are a couple Cosman videos on dovetails that explains his marking method in great detail. Personally, I found errors in marking to have been one of my biggest problems. Even as my sawing got better and my paring much better, correct marking helped me a lot. Now my pencil is more to highlight a knife cut and mark the waste, not for a transfer line.

I picked up a cheap scalpel wondering if it's cut is fine enough to transfer on the edge of the cut. Probably is, but the cut is so fine, I can't see it.

Casey, do you mean the one with a hack saw and wavy metal blade? Most saws used for dovetails, western or eastern, are back saws. I guess an exception is those who like a frame saw. I tried a frame saw and found them too top heavy. I thought about modifying a frame saw blade to fit a hack saw, but it does not seat stable enough on the pins. For now, it's my Froip that I get a clean strait cut where I intend. I have to wonder if like my first Ryoba, my first Dozuki was just too cheap and I may like a decent one. I am doing almost as well now with the Ryoba now as with my English saws.

 

[Oka]

this kind of saw actually it was this exact saw 10 tpi it looked like

 

[tvrgeek]

Ah, SKEW back, not back. Must have missed that.
Lots of paring to the line though Still, the point is getting the line in the right place.