To Sawstop or not to Sawstop
- Thread starter petebucy4638
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WADR it is unsafe for the reasons I mentioned and I strongly discourage anyone from using a TS this way.
I'm reminded of one of my mentors favorite sayings: "You can have a lot of experience doing something the wrong way."
Thanks but I didnt realize you were the official safety officer
1st. let me say I'm not a big SawStop fan. I find the saw well made. It's the company & it's owner I have a gripe with. I'm a very big fan of General products. They have 2 cabinet saws. One is made in the far east and it's a well built saw. One is made in Canada and it's the finest cabinet saw I have ever seen. Years age Klingspore carried General. I got to see the 2 saws side by side. You can SEE the difference without close inspection. I use a General contractor's saw. It's a far east import and I love it.
Running the blade "full-up" does not sound like a great idea. I've cut my left thumb 2 times (doing dumb stuff). Both times I was on the back side of the blade. Back there the blade kicks your hand up & away from the blade. Now the front side that were you lose a finger. The blade is cutting down & you're between the blade & the table. I use only enough blade to cut the wood & I use push sticks, blocks etc.
Last, let me leave you with one thought. If it cuts wood it can cut you. We are all woodworkers and we know that. Sometimes we just forget.
Pop :dontknow:
On my first job as a construction project superintendent I found a framer nailing plywood roof sheathing tight on all edges. I told him that the specifications were for a 1/8" gap over the rafters and in the field. I was pretty young at the time and the old guy scoffed at me saying that he has been sheathing roofs that way for thirty years. I told him that he had been doing it wrong for thirty years. I politely explained that ever sheet of plywood had these specs stamped on them and that he could either follow the specs or find another job. He quit on the spot.
When I first started working with table saws I was told to no raise the blade any higher over the work I was cutting by more the bottom of the blades carbide tip.
Pete
When I first started working with table saws I was told to no raise the blade any higher over the work I was cutting by more the bottom of the blades carbide tip.
Pete
Not to sound sarcastic but if it were safe to cut with the blade all the way up, why would table saw manufacturers increase the cost by incorporating blade adjustment.. The blade would be fixed at maximum height.
i also find the cut is much cleaner if the blade is barely above the piece and the guard rides better.
i also find the cut is much cleaner if the blade is barely above the piece and the guard rides better.
I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. It has been enlightening. After talking to a lot of my woodworking friends I have decided to sell my old Grizzly 1023RLW table saw and buy a new Grizzly 1023RLW table saw. The primary difference between my current saw and the new one is the addition of a riving knife and an easily removable splitter with a very functional blade guard. As I said in one of my earlier posts, if my current saw had a riving knife, I probably never would have considered replacing. I like the 1023RLW; it is a great saw. I think that it will meet all of my perceived safety needs. Grizzly has been making the 1023 for many years. It is a mature product that has continue to be refined and improved. One of the features of that saw that I truly enjoy is the extension table with the router attachment.
After all the exploration, why didn't I buy a Sawstop? It took me a while to come to that decision. Sawstop makes a great saw. Even without the contact safety feature, Sawstops products are superb. But without the safety brake, there isn't anything that the Sawstop can do that the Grizzly 1023 can't do just as well. I looked into Powermatic and Jet saws too. They all performed approximately the same and all of the top rated saws were made somewhere in Asia. But Sawstop saws do have a safety brake and there is no doubt that it is a significant safety feature. I suspect that some day similar technologies will be standard on all table saws.
So why didn't I opt for the safety brake and bite the Sawstop bullet? Primarily because out of all of the Sawstop owners that I talked to or read their reviews or posts, virtually none of them had ever tripped the safety brake by putting themselves in contact with the blade. It seems, and this is strictly anecdotal, that Sawstop owners are a careful bunch who exercise good saw safety hygiene, even with the blade brake technology. When reinforces my perception that personal safety practices around power tools are the gold standard for avoiding injuries.
One of the most experienced woodworkers that I know is in his mid-70's and he has a Sawstop saw. He said that one of the least talked about pieces of safety equipment on the Sawstop saw and on a lot of late model saws made by other manufacturers, Grizzly included, is the blade guard. Unlike the clunky blade guards of the past, the newer ones are easier to use. They go on and off the saw with ease and they do an excellent job of keeping your hands away from the blade. He said that he could never understand why someone would drop a pile of cash on a Sawstop saw, then take off the blade guard and never put it back on the saw.
When I start teaching my nephew to use a table saw, he is going to learn how to use it with the blade guard and splitter installed as often as is possible. On non-through cuts he will learn how to cut lumber safely and even then he will have a riving knife installed on the saw. There is nothing that will hone your own safety skills as much as having to teach them to someone else.
For anyone who thinks that the price of the Sawstop saw was a factor, it really wasn't. I initially set a budget of $3,500 for a new saw, based on the cost of a 3HP Powermatic. And as good of a saw as the Sawstop saw is, without the blade brake, it was just another pretty face in a sea of competent table saws. Considering that I have almost eight years experience with the Grizzly 1023, I chose to stay with a design that I both know and like, of course with a few updated safety features.
Thanks again to everyone for their input.
Pete
After all the exploration, why didn't I buy a Sawstop? It took me a while to come to that decision. Sawstop makes a great saw. Even without the contact safety feature, Sawstops products are superb. But without the safety brake, there isn't anything that the Sawstop can do that the Grizzly 1023 can't do just as well. I looked into Powermatic and Jet saws too. They all performed approximately the same and all of the top rated saws were made somewhere in Asia. But Sawstop saws do have a safety brake and there is no doubt that it is a significant safety feature. I suspect that some day similar technologies will be standard on all table saws.
So why didn't I opt for the safety brake and bite the Sawstop bullet? Primarily because out of all of the Sawstop owners that I talked to or read their reviews or posts, virtually none of them had ever tripped the safety brake by putting themselves in contact with the blade. It seems, and this is strictly anecdotal, that Sawstop owners are a careful bunch who exercise good saw safety hygiene, even with the blade brake technology. When reinforces my perception that personal safety practices around power tools are the gold standard for avoiding injuries.
One of the most experienced woodworkers that I know is in his mid-70's and he has a Sawstop saw. He said that one of the least talked about pieces of safety equipment on the Sawstop saw and on a lot of late model saws made by other manufacturers, Grizzly included, is the blade guard. Unlike the clunky blade guards of the past, the newer ones are easier to use. They go on and off the saw with ease and they do an excellent job of keeping your hands away from the blade. He said that he could never understand why someone would drop a pile of cash on a Sawstop saw, then take off the blade guard and never put it back on the saw.
When I start teaching my nephew to use a table saw, he is going to learn how to use it with the blade guard and splitter installed as often as is possible. On non-through cuts he will learn how to cut lumber safely and even then he will have a riving knife installed on the saw. There is nothing that will hone your own safety skills as much as having to teach them to someone else.
For anyone who thinks that the price of the Sawstop saw was a factor, it really wasn't. I initially set a budget of $3,500 for a new saw, based on the cost of a 3HP Powermatic. And as good of a saw as the Sawstop saw is, without the blade brake, it was just another pretty face in a sea of competent table saws. Considering that I have almost eight years experience with the Grizzly 1023, I chose to stay with a design that I both know and like, of course with a few updated safety features.
Thanks again to everyone for their input.
Pete
Jeff,
I look at using a blade at full up position does 2 things, first, its like I said before, It puts the blades cutting forces downward into the table similar to a bandsaw, and second, It acts like a riving knife. Kickback occurs when a workpiece is allowed to twist and climb up the (small) ramp on the out board end of the cut when most woodworkers set their blade height just above the workpiece thickness. When the blade is at full up position this "ramp" is very high and the workpiece cannot get on top of it.
As for tablesaw manufacturers not setting the blade at full height, well I use mine to dado with on occasion too.!
Im not telling anyone else to work this way, like I said before this is my experience, you all can use whatever methods and tools you choose.
How many of them have collected on THEIR life insurance?
Chris_goris,
I look at this in quite the opposite manner. The more blade you have exposed, the more surface area the wood can contact with and grab onto the wood without a splitter or riving knife in play.
If you have these features keeping the wood from contacting the increased surface area of the blade, then it becomes a non-issue. If this works for you, and you feel safe in operating in this manner, I am not trying to tell you that you are doing it wrong.
My table-saw is an old craftsman model that has a splitter that does not move with the blade angle. I spent more time trying to force the wood past the splitter than I should, and start losing sight of safe operations. I have since removed that splitter and work without either a splitter or riving knife. I keep the blade just above the top surface of the wood I am cutting and have not suffered from a kick-back yet. I have had a couple of almost kickbacks, and that brings to mind another safety step. I stand to the side, and not directly behind the material that is between the blade and the fence. I have no desire to become a human target for a wooden projectile of any size.
I look at this in quite the opposite manner. The more blade you have exposed, the more surface area the wood can contact with and grab onto the wood without a splitter or riving knife in play.
If you have these features keeping the wood from contacting the increased surface area of the blade, then it becomes a non-issue. If this works for you, and you feel safe in operating in this manner, I am not trying to tell you that you are doing it wrong.
My table-saw is an old craftsman model that has a splitter that does not move with the blade angle. I spent more time trying to force the wood past the splitter than I should, and start losing sight of safe operations. I have since removed that splitter and work without either a splitter or riving knife. I keep the blade just above the top surface of the wood I am cutting and have not suffered from a kick-back yet. I have had a couple of almost kickbacks, and that brings to mind another safety step. I stand to the side, and not directly behind the material that is between the blade and the fence. I have no desire to become a human target for a wooden projectile of any size.
If I had been at your meeting, my hand would have gone up too.
I have never liked saw guards or splitters. They were so difficult to remove and put back on the saw that I usually just put them on a shelf someplace and forgot about them. The guards were awkward to use, even if you installed them on a saw where they could be left installed most of the time. They didn't lift as expected on thin stock. The stock splitter/blade guard that come on table saws until recently struck me as something that the industry put together to give their lawyers a safety device that the could fall back on during a law suit.
The new splitter and blade guards that come on the Sawstop and the Grizzly 1023 saws are nice. On the Grizzly model, the sides of the guard go up and down independently of each other. Both models can be installed and removed in seconds with no recalibration needed. The trick of using a saw guard is that you never put your fingers under the guard - never. I use a push stick and keep my fingers far away from the blade.
Pete
I have never liked saw guards or splitters. They were so difficult to remove and put back on the saw that I usually just put them on a shelf someplace and forgot about them. The guards were awkward to use, even if you installed them on a saw where they could be left installed most of the time. They didn't lift as expected on thin stock. The stock splitter/blade guard that come on table saws until recently struck me as something that the industry put together to give their lawyers a safety device that the could fall back on during a law suit.
The new splitter and blade guards that come on the Sawstop and the Grizzly 1023 saws are nice. On the Grizzly model, the sides of the guard go up and down independently of each other. Both models can be installed and removed in seconds with no recalibration needed. The trick of using a saw guard is that you never put your fingers under the guard - never. I use a push stick and keep my fingers far away from the blade.
Pete
I'm with Chris on this one too. Respect the machine, don't ask it to do things you shouldn't or what physics (common sense) tells you is wrong and you will be safe. Bad lumber probably causes a few accidents but I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut that 2 issues cause 2/3 of the accidents with table saws; 1) allowing a short piece being crosscut to rotate between blade and fence (frisbee!!!) or, 2) allowing the front, entry end of a piece to lift off the table when ripping (broken thumb). Neither has ever happened to me but I know a few folks that either or both have happened to.
Personally, I think the most dangerous tool in the shop is a dull chisel.
Personally, I think the most dangerous tool in the shop is a dull chisel.
The first is obvious, at least to me. The second, i'm not quite sure I comprehend the broken thumb happens?
As a long-time motorcycle enthusiast, I have had more than a few people tell me that they don't wear helmets because they can kill you in a crash. Mostly the cite the helmet breaking the riders neck. Motorcycle crash statistics tell a very different story. And unlike saw injuries, there are a lot of statistics to to compare when it comes to motorcycle crashes. It is troubling how easy it is for people to convince themselves that something is factual without having any real proof. I think that we are all guilty, more of less of accepting that something is true, when it isn't.
From flu shots to motorcycle helmets to table saw safety devices, we all form our opinions as best we can and live with the consequences if we are wrong.
Pete
From flu shots to motorcycle helmets to table saw safety devices, we all form our opinions as best we can and live with the consequences if we are wrong.
Pete
Well said....
GEEZ Dave, there is being prepared and then there is "painting the devil on the wall!" ha ha
LOL, this thread sure has gone around the block over here.
From table saws to motorcycles to seat belts. :gar-Bi
We can't wear seat belts on motorcycles and bicycles, but we can in cars as we can use safety measures on table saws.
My motto is always when it is just me responsible and no one else, I depend on my common sense and motor skills to stay safe. But when someone else gets involved, where I do not have 100% control, I take all the safety precautions possible.
If my table saw was open to use for others, it would have all the latest safety devices available.
In a car we depend on the actions of thousands of strangers on the road, with no idea how they may behave. So, safety ratings and seat belts are pretty important, the latter being regulated by having the privilege of a drivers licence.
Motorcycles, I ride a sports bike, one of the big fast ones doing 120mph in second gear, but always smile when the Harley riders wearing T-Shirts and Jeans tell me I will kill myself on that rocket when I wear all the latest safety gear.
I still race bicycles (best health insurance on the planet is aerobic endurance) and crash probably at least 4 times a year during racing, normally someone else taking a whole lot of us down. It is part of the fun though, same as playing football. When training out on the road though, I use safety lights and always ride with a helmet.
The weirdest thing: When I got to 60, racing motorcycles for almost 40 years, I had to ask myself how on earth did I manage to get to 60.
Remember: Every day is a gift and good health just makes it better!!!
Steve Jobs at the end said among all his achievements, there was one lesson he missed and one book he forgot to read. It was the book of healthy living.
From table saws to motorcycles to seat belts. :gar-Bi
We can't wear seat belts on motorcycles and bicycles, but we can in cars as we can use safety measures on table saws.
My motto is always when it is just me responsible and no one else, I depend on my common sense and motor skills to stay safe. But when someone else gets involved, where I do not have 100% control, I take all the safety precautions possible.
If my table saw was open to use for others, it would have all the latest safety devices available.
In a car we depend on the actions of thousands of strangers on the road, with no idea how they may behave. So, safety ratings and seat belts are pretty important, the latter being regulated by having the privilege of a drivers licence.
Motorcycles, I ride a sports bike, one of the big fast ones doing 120mph in second gear, but always smile when the Harley riders wearing T-Shirts and Jeans tell me I will kill myself on that rocket when I wear all the latest safety gear.
I still race bicycles (best health insurance on the planet is aerobic endurance) and crash probably at least 4 times a year during racing, normally someone else taking a whole lot of us down. It is part of the fun though, same as playing football. When training out on the road though, I use safety lights and always ride with a helmet.
The weirdest thing: When I got to 60, racing motorcycles for almost 40 years, I had to ask myself how on earth did I manage to get to 60.
Remember: Every day is a gift and good health just makes it better!!!
Steve Jobs at the end said among all his achievements, there was one lesson he missed and one book he forgot to read. It was the book of healthy living.
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