Why?

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Vetteman9956

New User
Brad
Why do we let someone join the group, make no posts, and let them fill the classifieds with tools that are almost at retail? Seems like we need to set some restrictions on this, like they have to be involved in the group for a time before they use the site as another craig's list. just my 2 cents but I don't believe this is what Steve had in mind when he started the site.
 

CrealBilly

New User
Jeff
Why do we let someone join the group, make no posts, and let them fill the classifieds with tools that are almost at retail? Seems like we need to set some restrictions on this, like they have to be involved in the group for a time before they use the site as another craig's list. just my 2 cents but I don't believe this is what Steve had in mind when he started the site.
Good question and good points being raised.

it's natures way of telling you somethings wrong
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0V0Vu_utUZY
 

sawman101

Bruce Swanson
Corporate Member
I too felt this wasn't proper. By not posting anything, we know nothing about the individual. I feel he used our website solely for the purpose of trying to sell used tools that were overpriced. Perhaps a policy similar to making so many posts before becoming DQ.
 

SteveColes

Steve
Corporate Member
Why do we let someone join the group, make no posts, and let them fill the classifieds with tools that are almost at retail? Seems like we need to set some restrictions on this, like they have to be involved in the group for a time before they use the site as another craig's list. just my 2 cents but I don't believe this is what Steve had in mind when he started the site.
It irritates me too, You are right that it is not what I had in mind. But a lot of time has gone by and changes were made because almost every time we had restrictions based on how long a person has been a member or number of posts or visit freq., there have been unintended negative consequences. Sometimes, it just meant some things were just too hard on our Admin and moderators. Other times is was the Policy was restricting some thing that would have been a good thing. What about the new members who offers something that would be a decent deal? Should our members not be able to see it just because the seller is new? BTW, that has happened many times over the years.

BTW, most of us know not to buy something if it is not a good deal.

I am just speaking for myself.

Over the years I have become an advocate for the least possible rules.:swoon:
 

red

Papa Red
Red
Senior User
I belong to some forums where you need to have at least 25 posts before you can post to the classifieds. I think it's a good idea.

Red
 

nn4jw

New User
Jim
I agree that making too many rules will almost inevitably lead to negative unintended consequences.

In this case I hadn't even noticed that the seller is a new member and for that matter hadn't even noticed the for sale items. Given the prices I've seen here, both high and low, aren't anything new it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Just like anything else for sale here, if I think the prices are too high I just ignore the item. And I don't feel the need to argue with any seller over the asking price. Negotiate, maybe. If the price is good and I want the item the last thing on my mind is how many posts that seller has or how long he's been a member.

To each his own, of course.
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
Let me assure you that the Board has discussed this topic on and off many times over the years. Our current policy is toward being less restrictive. This is to lessen the burden on the site admins and make our new users feel more at home.

Granted some will take advantage of us, post high priced items and move on if they sell. Most people on this site are pretty savvy buyers and will just pass on things that aren't a good deal. Or at worst, ask other here if it is a good deal if they are unsure.

Ads do time out and most of these opportunists will just let them expire once they realize there are no rube's here on the site. Or will learn the true value of the items they're trying to sell. And that is actually what we are about here. Education.

I personally just ignore classified I'm not interested in or that are too high priced. And I'd be leery of meeting anyone either to buy or sell that I don't recognize from their postings.
 

CrealBilly

New User
Jeff
Let me assure you that the Board has discussed this topic on and off many times over the years. Our current policy is toward being less restrictive. This is to lessen the burden on the site admins and make our new users feel more at home.

Granted some will take advantage of us, post high priced items and move on if they sell. Most people on this site are pretty savvy buyers and will just pass on things that aren't a good deal. Or at worst, ask other here if it is a good deal if they are unsure.

Ads do time out and most of these opportunists will just let them expire once they realize there are no rube's here on the site. Or will learn the true value of the items they're trying to sell. And that is actually what we are about here. Education.

I personally just ignore classified I'm not interested in or that are too high priced. And I'd be leery of meeting anyone either to buy or sell that I don't recognize from their postings.


One site I used to frequent has a "reputation" score for their users. A lot of the site extras are based on this scoring and its the users who add points or remove points from your reputation. It's simple really if you like a post you push thumbs up, if the post is a bunch of BS the push thumbs down and of course you don't have to do either of you don't want too. Anyways I thought it clever, I don't know the details around the percentage scoring but I would think its an average based on the total number of posts the person made. And the users never knew who gave them a thumb up or down it was all anonymous.
Let me assure you that the Board has discussed this topic on and off many times over the years. Our current policy is toward being less restrictive. This is to lessen the burden on the site admins and make our new users feel more at home.

Granted some will take advantage of us, post high priced items and move on if they sell. Most people on this site are pretty savvy buyers and will just pass on things that aren't a good deal. Or at worst, ask other here if it is a good deal if they are unsure.

Ads do time out and most of these opportunists will just let them expire once they realize there are no rube's here on the site. Or will learn the true value of the items they're trying to sell. And that is actually what we are about here. Education.

I personally just ignore classified I'm not interested in or that are too high priced. And I'd be leery of meeting anyone either to buy or sell that I don't recognize from their postings.


it's natures way of telling you somethings wrong
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0V0Vu_utUZY
 

Mike Davis

Mike
Corporate Member
If you make a number of posts requirement some people will write a bunch of irrelevant posts to get around the requirement. It takes time to delete those and inform the person, sometimes they get angry and end up being banned when they otherwise could have neen properly converted to a good member.

if you limit the number of ads they put all of the items in one ad. Which can be good or bad depending on the items and how well they keep the ad current by deleting the sold items.

the least restrictive, least rules methodology does seem to work better for everyone. Especially when the moderators stay on top of things and have good discretion.
 

MarkE

Mark
Corporate Member
He posted 6 items. Who cares? If you don't want them, don't buy them.

I do not have any problem with this at all.
 

junquecol

Bruce
Senior User
Haven't we had a couple of posters who were just listing their neighbor's, who recently passed away, tools for the widow / widower. That is well with in our goal of establishing the love of wood working, so limiting access to ads would cap this. I see hundreds of over priced items on CL, but I haven't bought any of them.. If it's not at a price I want to pay, then my wallet stays shut.
 

thrt15nc

New User
Tom
I think there are more important things here that "time moderating" could be spent on rather than some guy that's trying to sell some tools. At least what he's doing is woodworking related.

.02

Tom
 

JohnW

New User
John
While I basically agree with the OP and had many of the same thoughts about this particular poster, I have personal experience on this site with restrictions on posting in the classifies.

I had a neighbor who was not a member here and moving out of state. He used to be a tool distributor and had tons of things to sell and was selling them at a very very good price. He tried to post them here and was not allowed because at the time, we had restrictions. So while I got to purchase several items at a great price, others on this site were not given the opportunity.

Reading some of the responses above...I am glad we have board members that give situations like this a thoughful review and come up with guidelines that keep NCWW a great forum.:icon_thum
 

CrealBilly

New User
Jeff
He posted 6 items. Who cares? If you don't want them, don't buy them.

I do not have any problem with this at all.
Yeah who cares... only 6 items... so what the big deal?

I had to login with a browser to look at the classifieds and determine who it was we are talking about. I expected to see pages upon pages of items but only found 6 from the same user GLO then looked at the users profile and GLO had 0 posts so I figured GLO was the user being mentioned here.

Anyways, there are only 6 items - I'm not seeing much of a problem. There are bigger fish to fry... like moderating me, for example :)

it's natures way of telling you somethings wrong
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0V0Vu_utUZY
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
As has been said and alluded to already, there really is no good set of rules that will satisfy, or even function as intended, across all the possible life scenarios. In the example of a widow or neighbor getting out of woodworking and selling their equipment, it makes absolutely no practical sense to tell them they will need to wait six months to a year, post dozens of relevant posts and visit the site (login) 3+ times a week (etc.) before they can sell the equipment (especially if they are not an active woodworker themselves). For every seemingly good and well thought out rule one may wish to impose there are equally valid cases that immediately bring to light how absurd or unfair the rule becomes in other very real everyday life circumstances. Yet, it is impractical, and a major headache to implement, a site where we would have one set of rules that apply to most everyone, and yet another set of rules that would only apply to other select people (without even touching upon the perceived fairness and arbitrary nature of such, much less the headaches trying to maintain such). Meanwhile, other possibilities would require wholesale recoding of third-party software and all the time and investment associated with such (remember, none of us are paid for our time maintaining this site, so time must be allocated wisely and with respect for our Staff's personal time so that we are not monopolizing their free time for little or no real added benefit) -- there are many things we could do or change just for the sake of doing them, but if they offer no value-added benefit then they are likely a poor allocation of a limited volunteer resource.

That said, any ad posted by a new member who has been with us for less than 2 months is clearly indicated as such with a "New Member" banner in bright yellow just above the price and the member's join month and year are visible in the right-hand sidebar of the item's sale page specifically to call attention to the fact that they likely have no established reputation on this site (and to proceed with caution -- I added this feature to better inform buyers). While we could just outright and universally ban all sales by new members the result is that our members ultimately miss out entirely on those opportunities and it can make our community come across to the public as very insensitive (particularly in the eyes of widows, which is not especially uncommon in this hobby). Is it better that all such opportunities be left for the local CraigsList or Goodwill where very few of us will ever have the chance to see them?

As for high prices, many sellers believe their used gear to be made of solid gold while most buyers would rather pay solid lead prices -- it is not until that gulf closes in on a more reasonable valuation that a sale will take place -- and that is true whether they are a newly registered member or a long established member as such perceptions are fundamental to human nature. In virtually every hobby forum with a classifieds section you will find sellers advertising their used gear at greater than current retail prices, such is not usually a scam or an intention to cause harm, it is simply an unrealistic perception of value by the seller because most sellers suffer a cognitive dissonance when it comes to recognizing depreciation and/or the non-universality of sentimental valuations (especially in the case of a death). Others simply have no idea what an item is realistically worth and simply look for like items on the internet (often on retail sites, and some eBay ads can offer absurd values) and blindly use that for their valuation because they know no better and are naively pricing used gear. In time they will either come down to a more reasonable valuation, eventually enabling a sale, or they will give up altogether and/or move on. Nobody loses out in such cases, though their are no winners either until a sale can be made and everyone, hopefully, comes out a winner. Similarly, if you feel a price to be unreasonable you may always elect to make the seller an offer more inline with your own valuation, which they may either accept, reject, counteroffer, or simply ignore.

We do very much appreciate our member's input and use such for guidance in designing the site and debating the merits of rules and rule changes. However, it is also necessary to recognize that there are no truly fair ways to write certain rules that are ultimately very arbitrary in nature and, as such, we must chart a path that does the least overall harm and the most overall good. Sometimes the effort to create such well intended rules can result in very unwieldy policy with numerous rules amended by numerous exemptions meant to try and address all the unintended consequences of those well meaning rules. Sometimes the best you can do, instead, is try to create a very simple and basic set of rules that apply equally to everyone, only expanding upon such rules if absolutely necessary to address serious problems or abuses that cause actual harm and handle certain extraordinary instance on a case by case basis as necessary -- if nobody is harmed by a given act or example then is the rule, and its unintended consequences, truly necessary? That is the course we must invariably attempt to chart and it can be a real challenge because often there is no one course that will satisfy everyone! I thank everyone for their thoughts and understanding on the matter.
 
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