Warped table top on “new” cabinet saw - big deal or not?

[HMH]

Good morning all - wrapped up a project I’ve been working on last night, and it involved the first “in depth” use of a new Sawstop I bought last year - an “upgrade” from and old, 1950’s Unisaw I restored several years ago. That said, it mostly went well and I really like the saw, I set it up properly, etc, but was having a weird issue where my offcuts didn’t have a 90 degree edge, when my primary cuts did - maybe 1 degree off, that was confusing me a bit.

Investigated a bit more last night, and figured out that there is a ~0.006 “warp”, in the form of a dip on the left side of the blade, extending ~3” out from the blade opening, and about 2/3 of the total depth of the table, (front to back), which causes the blade to not be set to a perfect 90 degrees when referencing off of the left hand side of the blade, when it is set to a perfect 90 on the right.

A couple thought here - I’ve read that 1-2 thou is considered “acceptable”, but I’m a bit above that here. Am I obsessing, or is this a justifiable concern?

The saw was purchased new, by me at Klingspor last year, so certainly under warranty, but I imagine all that can be done is to possibly get a new table mailed to me from SS to install myself, and hope for the best, though maybe they have some tips/ tricks to loosen the table mounting bolts and apply weight to alleviate stress, etc?

Worded differently, am I obsessing here, or expecting too much from modern machinery/ castings? This isn’t a knock on SS at all - the rest of the saw is very well built, and I like it a lot/ am glad to have it, but this part isn’t quite up the to the cut quality I was able to eeek out of a ~70 year old table casting previously.

 

[Kirk S]

I think this is one of those times where a picture is worth a thousand words. I would be very interested how Saw Stop responds, the answer they provide will be a good indicator of what is the current standards in tool manufacturing.

 

[chris_goris]

Heath,
I think you are obsessing over nothing here. Quite possibly hard to determine with the tools at hand. I see a metal straight edge and a square in the pictures. How straight is this straight edge?. How square is the square?. Thats an awfully short legged square to determine if the entire surface will be square to the blade, IMO. What will be registering on that part of the table top?. There are far too many variables cutting wood (especially the wood itself) to obesess over 2 hairs , literally on one area of a "flat" surface that may or may not be "flat". Flatness tolerances on large surfaces like this are defined typically in zones of a certain size as related to the INTENDED use.
Now many here will argue about all this accuracy, and accuracy is great but there is absolute and relative accuracy. I think many would agree that relative accuracy is far more important than absolute , ie the relative width of a mortise relative the tenon is FAR more important than the actual size (absolute).
Its wood, it twists, expands, contracts, warps, bows does exactly what it wants from one day to the next. Accuracy today may be gone tomorrow.
This has always been my experience FWIW.

 

[HMH]

Heath,
I think you are obsessing over nothing here. Quite possibly hard to determine with the tools at hand. I see a metal straight edge and a square in the pictures. How straight is this straight edge?. How square is the square?. Thats an awfully short legged square to determine if the entire surface will be square to the blade, IMO. What will be registering on that part of the table top?. There are far too many variables cutting wood (especially the wood itself) to obesess over 2 hairs , literally on one area of a "flat" surface that may or may not be "flat". Flatness tolerances on large surfaces like this are defined typically in zones of a certain size as related to the INTENDED use.
Now many here will argue about all this accuracy, and accuracy is great but there is absolute and relative accuracy. I think many would agree that relative accuracy is far more important than absolute , ie the relative width of a mortise relative the tenon is FAR more important than the actual size (absolute).
Its wood, it twists, expands, contracts, warps, bows does exactly what it wants from one day to the next. Accuracy today may be gone tomorrow.
This has always been my experience FWIW.

to reiterate - the whole reason this “check for flat” came to be in the first place was due to the cuts I was getting - this exercise is not just checking flat for the sake of “checking the box”. When ripping, say a 6” wide board into 2-3 narrow boards for example - I’m getting a perfectly square cut for the piece ripped between the fence and blade, but then the off cut piece - that would be used for the next rip, is a hair out of square. A really pain when doing narrow panel glueups. Obviously can re-rip, or even joint the offset edge to get it back to square, but that’s a hassle/ extra step I’m. It wild about.

 

[chris_goris]

I dont see how one side of a cut can be square but not the other (off cut vs cutoff) is a cut (common) not complementary?

 

[HMH]

SAME! Hence the investigation into the why/ how, ha. One thought being that a relatively narrow offcut, (but enough that would otherwise be re-used), is riding the dip after the majority of the cut is completed, causing the offcut to "sag" onto the table surface on the left vs cantilevering off of the board on the right, and creating the warped cut I was getting. For clarity, the start of the cut is square on both pieces, (primary vs offcut), w/ the trailing edge of the offcut then a hair, but enough to be noticible, out of square. Calling SS sometime this week, and will updte w/ their advise.

 

[chris_goris]

Another thing to remember, a Tablesaw is NOT a jointer. Its a crude machine for parsing lumber. Neither piece, IMO, is sufficient "as is" off the machine acceptable for a glue up that you want to be flat or gapless. Sometimes ya just gotta put in the work

 

[Wilsoncb]

Looking at the pictures, if it’s square when the square is on the right and out as much as it appears on the left, something is wrong. Have you verified your square?

 

[HMH]

Looking at the pictures, if it’s square when the square is on the right and out as much as it appears on the left, something is wrong. Have you verified your square?

same results w/ (2) Woodpecker squares, and (1) Starrett combo square unfortuantely, all verified w/ the "draw a line/ flip and match the line" method.

 

[HMH]

Another thing to remember, a Tablesaw is NOT a jointer. Its a crude machine for parsing lumber. Neither piece, IMO, is sufficient "as is" off the machine acceptable for a glue up that you want to be flat or gapless. Sometimes ya just gotta put in the work

Certainly apprecite the advise - but not my first time around a TS either re: expectations. So far, this is the only machine I've ever had, out of 4-5 saws, (cabinet saws to job site saws) produce this issue, to this magnitude. Might have to just be a work-around on this saw, who knows, but will keep digging nonetheless. Thanks again!

 

[Darl Bundren]

Were it me, I'd see if SawStop couldn't provide a fix. Not sure what it'd look like if you sawed some dadoes with that weird angle on the left--would the walls be vertical on both sides? Good luck with it.

 

[NCPAPAOF2]

I'd just call Saw Stop and discuss it with them.

 

[chris_goris]

Do you get the same results with a different blade? tooth runout (nearly impossble to measure) could cause what youre seeing possibly.

 

[pop-pop]

This is a situation where a scond pair of eyes can be useful for diagnosis.

 

[Wiley's Woodworks]

I wouldn't cut SawStop any slack on this. Fresh off any saw, square is supposed to be square. When you review all their marketing braggadocio and their prices, you're within your customer rights to expect precision, even perfection. What's going to happen to your finger if the blade stop is a micro second slow? I don't see any difference. This forum wants to know the truth about how SS deals with you when you contact them.

Chris may have a point about tooth runout on the blade. Put another quality blade on the saw and retest the cuts. If the problem doesn't go away, set your jointer to the thinnest skim cut you can make and run each off-square cut off across it one time. Yes, it's an extra step, but it's easy and pretty quick.

 

[HMH]

Thanks All! Re" refrencing off othe blade - pictured is a quality Ridge Carbide, with the square held agains the plate between teeth, but I also checked/ verified aginst a known-true calibration plate, (I'm historically an OWWM guy, and have rebuilt/ dialed in ALOT of old machines at this point, so have several specilized plates/ jigs that I've picked up over the years, that helped alot here). Ironically, I never ran into this on old saws.

RE: where I noticed the "practical" concern in a cut - it was really just in the narrow, (3-4") rip offcuts to be reused that I mentioned initially, but most notibly/ annoyingly in 45 degree "waterfall" cuts I made for a cabinet box, wherin some cuts were made on the left side of the blade, and some on the right - I had larger gaps than I every have using the same methods on other saws before, and in trying to figure out why, whel aligning the boards, the ones mitered on the right side ot he blade were noticably out of plane when aligned side to side w/ a cut made on the left. For dados I didnt notice any issue/ square cuts there, but those were on wider boards/ crosscuts.

Sounds like the majority concensus here is that I "may be onto something", and at the very least, something is definitely out of the norm vs. what you guys have encountered - we'll call that a sanity check confirmed, and I'll reach out to SS.

Thanks!

 

[Wilsoncb]

Agree with @Wiley's Woodworks and others who suggested talking to SS. I would start by showing them the blade being out of square vs the concern of the .006 warp. Reason being when you explained the .006 warp potentially being the problem, my gut instinct was that in itself should not be a problem. However looking at the square against the blade it looks to be more like .06, which is totally unacceptable.

 

[ptt49er]

I sent their customer service an email yesterday - just got a call from them over lunch. I'd already figured out what was going on with the saw and they concurred. But that's the fastest I've ever had CS call me back from anywhere.

I'm willing to bet they get you taken care of! Good luck!

 

[Rwe2156]

Yeah, let's see what SS says. They may indulge you. 6 thou is well withing tolerances for ww'ing machines.

 

[ssmith]

This is for a 3HP PCS. Larger than I would've guessed for a premium saw, but it is what it is.