Ultra-budget vacuum veneering.

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marinosr

Richard
Corporate Member
I'm looking to incorporate some veneer into an upcoming project. Previously, I have used clamps, cauls, and MDF to veneer small pieces with good results, but I think that these panels will be too big for that method. What I don't want to do is invest in a $400 (or even $200) vacuum veneering setup. So it's going to be bootleg, but I'm looking for advice about feasibility of my method. First, I'm going to buy those vacuum bags they use for clothes, not a real veneering bag. Then I'm going to retrofit it with a barbed fitting using some rubber washers. Then I'm going to go to Auto Zone and borrow one of the loaner vacuum hand pumps that they use for bleeding brakes. (Hey stop laughing I told you I was going ultra-budget.) Then it's off to the races. I'll suck out most of the air through the vacuum cleaner port with my Dyson, then close it off and bring it to a high vacuum with the pump. :eusa_danc

Is there an obvious flaw with this plan?
 

Bernhard

Bernhard
User
Not sure that will work. It will probably take to long to create a high enough vacuum with a bleeder hand pump and the glue may set up. I am veneering some stuff right now, so if you have just a couple of pieces, you are welcome to add them to the queue. Pm me if interested.

Cheers,
Bernhard
 

Newboy

George
User
You know you can get a new vacuum pump for less than $100 on Amazon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
I'm looking to incorporate some veneer into an upcoming project. Previously, I have used clamps, cauls, and MDF to veneer small pieces with good results, but I think that these panels will be too big for that method. What I don't want to do is invest in a $400 (or even $200) vacuum veneering setup. So it's going to be bootleg, but I'm looking for advice about feasibility of my method. First, I'm going to buy those vacuum bags they use for clothes, not a real veneering bag. Then I'm going to retrofit it with a barbed fitting using some rubber washers. Then I'm going to go to Auto Zone and borrow one of the loaner vacuum hand pumps that they use for bleeding brakes. (Hey stop laughing I told you I was going ultra-budget.) Then it's off to the races. I'll suck out most of the air through the vacuum cleaner port with my Dyson, then close it off and bring it to a high vacuum with the pump. :eusa_danc

Is there an obvious flaw with this plan?


Yes this will not work as Bernard suggested. To pull down the veneer in a bag you will need to maintain 21hg for the duration of the cure.

I know that you are not in Durham and you are about to enter the cold Fall and Winter months. You would be wise to look in on a couple of the CA woodworking groups in and around Ontario. There is bound to be someone with a good bag set up that can do it for you or keep the cost way down.

If you were really in Durham.. ha I would do it for nada.

Take a look around your area.
 

Willemjm

Willem
Corporate Member
How big is the piece you want to veneer and what is the shape?

Before I built my vacuum press, I use to veneer by getting scrap pieces of upholstery foam and just clamping in a sandwich with the foam. I now have a big vacuum press, but for small pieces I sometimes use the clothes bags you mention with my Shop-Vac. If you can get all the air out, you don't need to pull 21hg, because with no air you will have full atmospheric pressure anyway and your Dyson can get all the air out. In short, you do not need all those fittings, or a vacuum pump, as long as you can suck all the air out you will have 21hg pressure on the veneer. The reason we use vacuum pumps is to clear all the air pockets in the bag and then maintain it with leakage, but you can achieve the same if the shape of your work-piece is simple and you can massage the clothes bag a little.

You might have to practice a little, because in the absence of pulling a high vacuum with a pump, if there are bubbles on the veneer surface, the veneer will bubble up as well. But if you use a piece of non slip rug pad on top of the veneer in the bag, it solves the problem.

If you use bandsawn veneer 1/16" or a bit thicker, the clothes bags with a vacuum cleaner do a great job, without problems.
 
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marinosr

Richard
Corporate Member
The panel will be ~30x16", using commercial veneer. I see the point about not getting the vacuum down quick enough. I was hoping to get around that by most of the air being sucked out with the vacuumm, with just a little work to do with the pump, but maybe that's a pipe dream.

Thanks for the offer Bernhard, but as Dan notes I'm living in Ontario now. I'll email the woodworking shop I'm a member of up here to see if anyone has a pump.

Willem I don't think you'll get an atmosphere of pressure on your veneer if you just vacuum out the air with a shop vac... there's still a lot of air in the bag until you pull a stronger vacuum. That said, it may be enough in some cases. Upholstery foam is an interesting thought.
 

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
The panel will be ~30x16", using commercial veneer. I see the point about not getting the vacuum down quick enough. I was hoping to get around that by most of the air being sucked out with the vacuumm, with just a little work to do with the pump, but maybe that's a pipe dream.

Well when you said panel, I was thinking 4' x 8' or something on the large end of things. Using commercial veneer(thin 1/30 and less) I would consider using the hammer veneer method.

I have done full panels with just a veneer hammer, hot hide and a clothes iron.

Unlike some other veneer workers, I did one 14" piece at a time. In photo one I put the first panel down and waited till the next day to iron out a couple bubbles. Then I put down the 2nd panel and pulled it tight with the veneer hammer. No tape in the process.

00427.JPG





1-veneer_and_caliper_003.JPG


1-veneer_and_caliper_001.JPG


On the table below I didn't even bother with getting the edges just right. I laid down the 2 sections like you see above and I had I gap in the middle. I expected it, so out came the router and a bit to cut the channel. In goes some interesting piece of inlay sitting around and a clean surface is there. No bags, vacuum pumps just glue and a hand tool.

1-10_May_2017_019.JPG


veneer_hammer_4_.JPG



You have mentioned you are on a tight budget. Well this is the cheap route. You can easily make one of these. Don't get talked into making a big wide one like 1 in the photo. A long handled one out of scraps that you can put your hand on the head and wiggle it along will work like a charm.

Take a look at the address below. He shows you in steps how to veneer with a simple set up.

Richard I have a vacuum system I built from parts and I have a glue pot and a veneer hammer. I am not making large panels. I rarely use the vacuum system as the other is just so easy and quick. Do not try to hammer veneer with yellow glue like a couple other here advocate. It does not work... well it doesn't for me.

[url]http://woodtreks.com/learn-how-hammer-veneers-hand-tools-inlay-marquetry-hide-glue/1493/[/URL]

[url]http://woodtreks.com/animal-protein-hide-glues-how-to-make-select-history/1549/[/URL]

 

Hmerkle

Board of Directors, Development Director
Hank
Staff member
Corporate Member
veneer_hammer_4_.JPG



You have mentioned you are on a tight budget. Well this is the cheap route. You can easily make one of these. Don't get talked into making a big wide one like 1 in the photo. A long handled one out of scraps that you can put your hand on the head and wiggle it along will work like a charm.

Take a look at the address below. He shows you in steps how to veneer with a simple set up.

Richard I have a vacuum system I built from parts and I have a glue pot and a veneer hammer. I am not making large panels. I rarely use the vacuum system as the other is just so easy and quick. Do not try to hammer veneer with yellow glue like a couple other here advocate. It does not work... well it doesn't for me.

http://woodtreks.com/learn-how-hammer-veneers-hand-tools-inlay-marquetry-hide-glue/1493/

http://woodtreks.com/animal-protein-hide-glues-how-to-make-select-history/1549/

Dan,
The "hammer" is relatively easy to make, but what "blade" do you recommend installing into the working edge of the hammer?
 

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
The "hammer" is relatively easy to make, but what "blade" do you recommend installing into the working edge of the hammer?

If you look carefully at the picture you still won't have the answer you need. Hammers #1 and 2 have a piece of thick plexiglass and 3 and 4 have metal.The plexi was hanging around against a wall in the shop I worked in and it was headed for the circular file.

Plexi is good. Easy to cut and shape. Easy to glue in the wooden head. I give it a C+. PITA to clean up. Yes I am lazy.. that's why I use shellac and hide. No cleaning brushes.

You can not see it in the photo but hammer 3 has a rounded edge made of steel. Hammer 4 has copper and one I did not photgraph has brass.

I like the brass the best as it allows me to put the edge in hot water and the glue comes off with a pass of a rag or my shirt.

The ticket is to get the edge flat from side to side and then round over the 1/16" edges. This is not a scraper you want it to roll over the surface as you pull and wiggle.

Sadly, I have given some of my favorites away or I would offer one to you. I like to make them up as I go with wood and veneer from projects I enjoyed. You should have come to the veneering class I taught at Phil Soper's shop. Phil made veneer hammers for everybody. They were nicely built not funky blocks on a stick like mine.

No matter what hammer style you build, you will make others if you continue with this method of veneering. Its a little like mallets but with veneer hammers, you don't need a big war club.

Do not leave them unguarded near the ground if you have a dog. They love the smell of the glue and they will run off with you hammer. Ask me how...?

This is without question the best time of year to do hot hide glue veneer work. The temperature and the dry air is just fantastic.
 
Last edited:

Hmerkle

Board of Directors, Development Director
Hank
Staff member
Corporate Member
The "hammer" is relatively easy to make, but what "blade" do you recommend installing into the working edge of the hammer?

If you look carefully at the picture you still won't have the answer you need. Hammers #1 and 2 have a piece of thick plexiglass and 3 and 4 have metal.The plexi was hanging around against a wall in the shop I worked in and it was headed for the circular file.

Plexi is good. Easy to cut and shape. Easy to glue in the wooden head. I give it a C+. PITA to clean up. Yes I am lazy.. that's why I use shellac and hide. No cleaning brushes.

You can not see it in the photo but hammer 3 has a rounded edge made of steel. Hammer 4 has copper and one I did not photgraph has brass.

I like the brass the best as it allows me to put the edge in hot water and the glue comes off with a pass of a rag or my shirt.

The ticket is to get the edge flat from side to side and then round over the 1/16" edges. This is not a scraper you want it to roll over the surface as you pull and wiggle.

Sadly, I have given some of my favorites away or I would offer one to you. I like to make them up as I go with wood and veneer from projects I enjoyed. You should have come to the veneering class I taught at Phil Soper's shop. Phil made veneer hammers for everybody. They were nicely built not funky blocks on a stick like mine.

No matter what hammer style you build, you will make others if you continue with this method of veneering. Its a little like mallets but with veneer hammers, you don't need a big war club.

Do not leave them unguarded near the ground if you have a dog. They love the smell of the glue and they will run off with you hammer. Ask me how...?

This is without question the best time of year to do hot hide glue veneer work. The temperature and the dry air is just fantastic.

Thanks - then brass is preferred - I am guessing is shouldn't flex - so >1/8"? or is 1/4" better?
 

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
Brass 1/8 thick x 2.5 wide won't flex when set in the edge of the head. I like the brass plate to protrude about 3/8" from the wood edge. This makes it easy to clean and chip off the hard glue if you get busy and forget. Additionally, if it gets heavy use like mine do, you will need to "touch up" the rounded edge with a mill file.

Use epoxy to set the brass in the wood channel.
 

Phil S

Phil Soper
Staff member
Corporate Member
Hank, Come see me next time you are in Raleigh. I have an extra from the workshop - it is just sitting in a drawer, might as well get you to put it to work
 

junquecol

Bruce
Senior User
Got compressed air? Then look at a venturi pump. Air-Vac Engineering AH-93. If your compressor has a threaded filter on the inlet, then you have a vacuum pump. But be sure and add a filter between bag and vacuum generator. I use a metal fuel filter.
 

marinosr

Richard
Corporate Member
Hrm OK a lot to chew on. Hammer veneering definitely seems like a viable option and cheap. Debating whether I want to get into hot hide glue... I have quite the collection of glues and they're all going to expire before I can use them :D Dan you didn't mention a toothing plane... is this not a necessity for hammer veneering (I'll be using a solid wood substrate?)

I did see those venturi setups and they look nice, but I don't have a compressor.
 
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