Trouble with finishing walnut

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bioman

New User
Jeff
Hello there. Good to be here! My name is Jeff Adams and I own Wood Artistry & Restoration. I specialize in antique and furniture repair of all kinds. I also build custom pieces, cabinets, and entertainment centers. I work with both individuals and designers. I recently moved to Monroe NC from the crazy state of California. I had my business there as well full-time, but the wife wanted an affordable house! This was a hobby of mine turned full-time after I got tired of the medical profession and the corporate world of pharmaceuticals.

Business is good, but I am looking at increasing my volume and possibly hiring an additional employee this year. I should have a website up soon as well. I will lead in with a recent problem I had.

I have been refinishing for years, but have had some recent trouble with two walnut pieces. The nightstand has a solid walnut top, the dresser has a walnut veneer top. I was using a Minwax stain, then a gravity feed Porter Cable conventional spray gun (I tried HVLP also) with semi-gloss catalyzed lacquer (used Sherwin Williams and Cambell brands) but my end result was the same.

What was happening is that as soon as the wet lacquer would hit the top surface, it would begin to "pool" or have areas of extreme dimpling. I noticed that the stain did the same thing unless I put it on very thin, in which it would not be dark enough. If I basically misted the lacquer on from a distance, I could avoid the dimple effect, but was left with a matt type rough finish that I thought I could just sand with 280 grit open coat finishing paper, then steel wool with 0000 aught steel wool and wax to get a high definition finish. The problem with this method is that I would need to sand so much just to even the finish out that I would cut through my lacquer into my stain coat in places, thus ruining the consistent color. This is the first time I have ever had this problem. I cleaned my guns, checked my air hose for water droplets, checked for impurities in the lacquer, adjusted the lacquer thinner, and even sprayed just straight lacquer on the piece with no stain at all to check for stain/laquer compatibilty. I still ended up with the dimpling and orange peel effect. I have used this same technique to put high profile finishes on countless pieces including large table tops. Infact, I just used the exact same chemicals and equipment on a large oak table top that was a high definition finish with no problems. I did not strip that table top though, just added to the existing finish. The only common denominator I can come up with is the wood type-walnut. Both pieces were stripped with stripper then sanded with 120 grit 3M paper. Does walnut wood have some sort of property (more silica, or something?) that I should be aware of? Does anyone else have this problem?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!:BangHead:
Jeff
 

cskipper

Moderator
Cathy
Jeff, I have no idea how to solve your problem. I did, however, want to welcome you to the site. I know there are folks here who between us, know something - if not a lot of things - about virtually everything. You'll also find us to be a friendly group. I'm sure you'll get responses to your dilemma. Feel free to jump in!
 

Steve D

Member
Steve DeWeese
Jeff,

Sorry to hear about your problem and welcome to the site.

It sounds like classic fisheye to me. Pieces that are older and have been exposed to furniture polish containing silicone can wreak havoc on finishes. I would suggest a visit to the forum at www.homesteadfinishing.com and a search on fisheye and or silicone and you will likely find a solution to your problem. If not, post the same question there as this group has some of the broadest knowledge in the finishing industry.
 

D L Ames

New User
D L Ames
Jeff, welcome to the site. As Steve mentioned it sounds like fish-eye to me as well. The link he posted for you should be able to give you a viable solution to the problem.

Again, welcome aboard.

D L
 

bioman

New User
Jeff
Steve D.

Thanks to you and all who followed up on my dillemma. I checked with the web site you recommended (homestead finishing.com) and found the answer I was looking for. Ends up that many manufacturers use solvent based sealers or pastes that may not be compatible with conventional finishes. Even though I stripped the pieces I was working on, the grain sealer is still in teh wood and is not compatible with the lacquer, or stain. The fact they were both walnut is just coincidence. They recommend sanding out the grain filler with 400 grit paper (like using a piece of concrete I think) or the more preferred method of sealing with a dewaxed shellac, then sanding with 320 grit paper prior to staining. :eusa_danc

Thanks again

Jeff
 

bioman

New User
Jeff
Sorry, 400 grit is not like concrete! Quite the opposite. Hey it's 1 am here....need sleep.

Love the site and thanks again for giving me a link to find my answer!!

Jeff
 

sapwood

New User
Roger
Welcome Bioman!

Apparently NC is acquiring a lot of left coast folks. :lol: Glad someone was able to assist with your problem. And we can't wait to see some pixs of your work and the forthcoming website.

Sapwood
 

mshel

New User
Michael Shelley
bioman said:
Hello there. Good to be here! My name is Jeff Adams and I own Wood Artistry & Restoration. I specialize in antique and furniture repair of all kinds. I also build custom pieces, cabinets, and entertainment centers. I work with both individuals and designers. I recently moved to Monroe NC from the crazy state of California. I had my business there as well full-time, but the wife wanted an affordable house! This was a hobby of mine turned full-time after I got tired of the medical profession and the corporate world of pharmaceuticals.

Business is good, but I am looking at increasing my volume and possibly hiring an additional employee this year. I should have a website up soon as well. I will lead in with a recent problem I had.

I have been refinishing for years, but have had some recent trouble with two walnut pieces. The nightstand has a solid walnut top, the dresser has a walnut veneer top. I was using a Minwax stain, then a gravity feed Porter Cable conventional spray gun (I tried HVLP also) with semi-gloss catalyzed lacquer (used Sherwin Williams and Cambell brands) but my end result was the same.

What was happening is that as soon as the wet lacquer would hit the top surface, it would begin to "pool" or have areas of extreme dimpling. I noticed that the stain did the same thing unless I put it on very thin, in which it would not be dark enough. If I basically misted the lacquer on from a distance, I could avoid the dimple effect, but was left with a matt type rough finish that I thought I could just sand with 280 grit open coat finishing paper, then steel wool with 0000 aught steel wool and wax to get a high definition finish. The problem with this method is that I would need to sand so much just to even the finish out that I would cut through my lacquer into my stain coat in places, thus ruining the consistent color. This is the first time I have ever had this problem. I cleaned my guns, checked my air hose for water droplets, checked for impurities in the lacquer, adjusted the lacquer thinner, and even sprayed just straight lacquer on the piece with no stain at all to check for stain/laquer compatibilty. I still ended up with the dimpling and orange peel effect. I have used this same technique to put high profile finishes on countless pieces including large table tops. Infact, I just used the exact same chemicals and equipment on a large oak table top that was a high definition finish with no problems. I did not strip that table top though, just added to the existing finish. The only common denominator I can come up with is the wood type-walnut. Both pieces were stripped with stripper then sanded with 120 grit 3M paper. Does walnut wood have some sort of property (more silica, or something?) that I should be aware of? Does anyone else have this problem?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!:BangHead:
Jeff

Jeff,

Know what your are going through, been there done that. Something to also consider is the residue left by the stripping process. Some strippers leave a wax residue which if not cleaned off with lacq. thinner will end up giving you the dimple effect also. Another thing that some folks don't know, is if the owner has used any kind of Pledge or other stuff in the past to clean / polish the funiture, it does penetrate the finish and will get into the wood and is virtually impossible to remove. I learned from a professional finisher I work with that on old pieces, always shoot a spit coat of shellac before putting any kind of lacquer finish on. BTW, the advice you have received so far seems right on. Good luck in your business. I too made the plunge this year to full time business.

MIke
 

Ozzie-x

New User
Randy
This is a good thread for me because I had the same thing happen last year with a mahogany table. A friend brought it to the shop and refinished it. When we put the lacquer on, fish-eye city. I had never had that happen with lacquer. At first I thought maybe the 300 coats of danish oil he put on it was the problem, but after monkeying with it, realized it was something strange. Big Mike and Steve D probably hit it, I figured there was silicone coming from somewhere and I thought about grocery store furniture polishes that may have silicone that may be absorbed deep into the wood. We stripped the table (again) and scrubbed it good with lacquer thinner then alcohol. When we got to the lacquer, there was only a couple of fish-eyes and we were able to deal with them. Big Mike had the solution with applying a seal coat of shellac.
 

Steve D

Member
Steve DeWeese
Shellac is definitely the way to go but in a pinch you can also use several extremely light "dusting" coats of lacquer. Shellac is an amazing sealer and can be used in between other incompatible finshes like oil base / water base, etc. It's also one of the most forgiving finishes out there and very easy to repair if you have a problem.
 

DavidF

New User
David
Very interesting thread. One to archive in the old memory bank for future use.

Pledge type finishes have been banned in our house for years now!! in fact the only finish Carol is allowed to use is Lemon oil.
 

Mountaincraft

New User
William
I didn't look at this in time, but again the help was there...

Should we have a list of common furniture products that have silicone or other incompatible ingredients for finishing easily available and separated for viewing?

Many were said, but I think we should expose the difference between finish and the appearance of finish. I invite all who know to list the products that have an adverse effect on the fine finishing of furniture and the fixes they have succeded in using. I'll start a list...

Problems:

Pledge
Scotts Liquid Gold
Old English

These have silicone.

Fixes:

Complete bathing in naptha (rue the atmosphere)
Dewaxed shellac thin overcoat
Fisheye fixer in the varnish (still uneasy about total surface adhesion and dispersion)

Any other ideas?
 

William Bender

New User
William Bender
Something else to watch out for after using the Campbell's, due to there ability to cure so quickly they use some very harsh chemicals which depending on which type of campbell's you use can actually melt/burn through whatever is benith it. Yes laquer melts each coat and bind with each additional coat but what I am talking about is where the laquer or stain actually cooks what is below it. When using campell's or chemcraft or solvent based finishes you must be very careful to stay consistent. With minwax and other less caustic finishes you can mix and match quite easily with out much difficulty, unfortunatly not with solvents. You could put a solvent stain down and then oil poly on top but why... hmmm unless you are matching and the piece in there has an old stain you can only color match and you color match through solvents rather than dyes and they had a yellowing poly finish .... what if what if's yeah sorry to drag out, just be careful of mixing and matching your finish will chip off and all sort of other bad things if you mix with solvents or use lesser degrees of the solvent products, Use the Max with the Max.


William
 
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