Tablesaw issue

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Travis Porter

Travis
Corporate Member
Now that I have fixed the arbor nut on my saw, I seem to have discovered a new issue.

I got the miter slots parallel to the blade no problem there. I square the blade up to the left side of the top adjust the stops looks good. For some reason, I decide to put the square on the right side, and it isn't square. I am thinking the square I have is out of line, so I get another square and get the same thing. Check the two squares to each other and they are right.

Soooooo, I whip out a straight edge and a feeler gauge. The top (without wings) is dished .01 inches. I figure, order a new top and be done with it. Check online with WMH and it shows $390. Not chump change, but I figure I can live with it. Call them about ordering, and they say "oh no, that part number has been changed. The correct part number is such and such and it is $1100" and we do have it in stock. So, I am in sticker shock.

So what should I do?

A) Live with it (will probably drive me nuts if I do)
B) Get the top reground (doesn't seem like a good choice with miter slots, blade insert, wings etc)
C) Bite the bullet and order the top
D) Buy a used saw like the one on Craigslist, swap the top or motor and sell it
E) Buy a new saw

I am really not thrilled with any of the options. If I were to buy a new saw, I would look hard at a PM2000, but it is hard for me to believe it is an upgrade to a PM66 (which I currently have).
 

Toddler

New User
Todd
Not to sound insensitive, but I have two ideas.

If you can you take the top off, lie it down on 2x4's, and step on the underside, you might get rid of .01" Let's hear what the engineers think.

I also think .01 is not a lot to machine off with a ROS and some grinding compound. Borrow a 4' machinists strait edge or use the rope trick, map out the high spots and have at it. 3 or 4 careful hours and you're done.
 

cpowell

New User
Chuck
Now that I have fixed the arbor nut on my saw, I seem to have discovered a new issue.

I got the miter slots parallel to the blade no problem there. I square the blade up to the left side of the top adjust the stops looks good. For some reason, I decide to put the square on the right side, and it isn't square. I am thinking the square I have is out of line, so I get another square and get the same thing. Check the two squares to each other and they are right.

Soooooo, I whip out a straight edge and a feeler gauge. The top (without wings) is dished .01 inches. I figure, order a new top and be done with it. Check online with WMH and it shows $390. Not chump change, but I figure I can live with it. Call them about ordering, and they say "oh no, that part number has been changed. The correct part number is such and such and it is $1100" and we do have it in stock. So, I am in sticker shock.

So what should I do?

A) Live with it (will probably drive me nuts if I do)
B) Get the top reground (doesn't seem like a good choice with miter slots, blade insert, wings etc)
C) Bite the bullet and order the top
D) Buy a used saw like the one on Craigslist, swap the top or motor and sell it
E) Buy a new saw

I am really not thrilled with any of the options. If I were to buy a new saw, I would look hard at a PM2000, but it is hard for me to believe it is an upgrade to a PM66 (which I currently have).

Travis, I would think about the maximum error this could cause you. 10 thousandths sounds big, especially for a PM66. But the impact on your work may be small. If the drop is .01 over 10 inches, that's an angle of .057 degrees. But you would only see that if the end of your stock was at the center/bottom of the low spot.

I have a tendency to get into measurements and worry myself over little details sometimes but I try to be realistic about the impact on the product. I only have one precision square that I KNOW is spot on and I always verify blade angle after returning from a bevel cut by placing the square on the left hand side.

Now, if you have a dish of .01 over 1 inch thats 0.57 degrees and its going to cause problems, especially if the blade is at the bottom center of the dish.

As far as 'B', get a price. What would it hurt? My inserts have height adjustment screws and the inserts are NOT close to being bottomed out.

Option C) is just plain ridiculous. No Way!!! Did they guarantee you a .002 tolerance on the new top?

Option D) is a possibility.

Option E) is costly. Unless maybe deep-down you want a Sawstop and are looking for a reason to buy!! :lol:

You've got a great saw. You've made a lot of good stuff with it. Just make sure you're not over-reacting to a few minor problems (this from a guy who returned 2 new bandsaws because of quality issues).

Chuck
 

dozer

Moderator
Mike
Travis, I have to agree with Chuck. I am not sure I would even worry about it. You have made lots of nice pieces and never really notice it being a problem. The way I see it wood is going to move any ways do I really need to be with in 10 thousandths of in inch. Just my .02
 

pcooper

Phillip Cooper
Corporate Member
I wouldn't worry about .01", matter of fact I'd say your doing well if that is all you have on some saws. You won't see that in wood, and suppose you do, that is what a sander is for. I always build in a margin of error greater than that on stuff so I can sand it to fit best, and if there is some amount of "error" on a piece, well, that is character in the piece not a flaw. I wouldn't want my work to look like it was made by a CNC machine, I want it to look like I made it so I don't strive for that kind of perfection. Just my $0.02. ;-)
 

Tarhead

Mark
Corporate Member
Travis,
Was it right before you took off the top? Could you wedge some shims under the dished area or add a thin washer to the right side hold down bolts to lift that side? Bruce (Junquecol) is the resident expert on this kind of thing. I'd get his perspective before opening up my wallet:)
 

Douglas Robinson

Doug Robinson
Corporate Member
Travis:

You already have my input. A new top from WMH is not an option. If SWMBO says ok, join me in my adventure.:-D Your decision will push me too.:eusa_whis

Doug
 

Grgramps

New User
Roy Hatch
Travis, I think I can appreciate how you feel. Having one of the better table saws you expect to see closer tolerances. Do you suppose this condition has existed since you started using the saw, or do you think it is something that came about recently?
I am curious to hear what you find when you cut a piece of wood. Can you measure angles that are not satisfactory for your work? Being neither an engineer nor a mathematician, I wonder if your cuts are off by an amount that you can measure? I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, because I would expect better if this were my saw.
Roy
 

Toddler

New User
Todd
Good advice all around. Steve, that is a great point!Is the dish with the wings off? Cast iron isn't that stiff, so the weight of the wings could move the table a touch. Shimming also sounds reasonable.
 

DavidF

New User
David
I agree with Steve here; adding the wings could change the whole shape of the top. If it doesn't, then as others have said, cut a few pieces of wood from both sides of the blade and see if any error is noticable.
 

SteveColes

Steve
Staff member
Corporate Member
I agree with Steve here; adding the wings could change the whole shape of the top. If it doesn't, then as others have said, cut a few pieces of wood from both sides of the blade and see if any error is noticable.
That's a first, we never agree:lol: Oh that's right, it's WW not politics:rolf: :rolf:
 

Travis Porter

Travis
Corporate Member
Toddler, I do not consider any comments insensitive. As to sanding, I am not comfortable with that. I have enough problems with hills and valleys when I sand wood.

Buying a new top is definitely out. I am unwilling to spend that kind of money on it after sleeping on it and thinking about it.

I think the top is dished .01 over 8 inches. I sit and think about this, and wonder "is this why when I cut cherry or maple it burns or is this why I have trouble cutting tenons at times with the saw"?

I have checked around machine shops today, and it is not something I have found that any are equipped to do. The size of the table is larger than most of their milling machines are able to handle.

Steve's comment on putting the wings on it and checking it makes more sense than any. I think I will try that and see what I get. There may be enough flex that it is the way it should be although the "modulus of elasticity" (if I said that right) for cast iron is very low.

I doubt I buy a new saw. I originally bought a PM66 as it is supposed to last a life time. I just replaced the arbor and belts, and it runs smooth as silk. Buying the used one on Craigslist swapping stuff around and selling it, having the top milled, or living with it (which may be what I do) are the only real options. Funny, LOML is ok with whatever I want to do. Can't complain there.
 

Travis Porter

Travis
Corporate Member
I am going to reassemble the saw with wings tonight, make test cuts, and try it out. A big part of the reason to post this was to get different perspectives and opinions, and ideas that I had not considered.

Wish me luck. I may be paranoid about something that isn't even a real problem.
 

DavidF

New User
David
I am going to reassemble the saw with wings tonight, make test cuts, and try it out. A big part of the reason to post this was to get different perspectives and opinions, and ideas that I had not considered.

Wish me luck. I may be paranoid about something that isn't even a real problem.

Best of luck with that Travis. When I get back from CA if there's anything I can help with please give me a shout. In fact I might be begging a go on that big drum sander of yours......
 

Travis Porter

Travis
Corporate Member
You are welcome to use the drum any time. Beware, I am looking at buying a wide belt if it works out. If I don't get the wide belt, I have a wixey gauge I will be putting on the drum.
 

DavidF

New User
David
You are welcome to use the drum any time. Beware, I am looking at buying a wide belt if it works out. If I don't get the wide belt, I have a wixey gauge I will be putting on the drum.

Nice! well if you decide to sell the drum give me call, I am on the look out for a good used one.
 

Gofor

Mark
Corporate Member
Before buying a new saw, check the companies tolerance policy. Ridgid's (not the same league, I know) is .016". That is the depth of an allowable defect (or a polished out defect).
As for refinishing it, you need a shop with a surface grinder. A milling machine will leave too rough a surface. By the time the cutter marks are polished out, you may well have more defects of a greater depth. Don't know how they polish off granite for tombstones, but someone who does it may have the tooling to do it.

Go
 

Travis Porter

Travis
Corporate Member
Gofor, I think you are right. I had zero luck finding anyone that thought or was willing to even try it. I even talked with a manufacturing facility and they were pretty much stumped.

On a positive note, I am out in the shop, got the top aligned, put the wings on it, and it is now dead flat. I have no gap any longer.

My thanks to all (especially Steve Coles) for the suggestions. They must grind the tops with the extension wings on.

Now, I am going to square the blade to the table (one last time), and then I get to go through and finish mounting the fence rails, table extension, etc.

Needless to say, I feel much better now.
 
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