Tablesaw: do we really need it?

[froglips]

:help: I'm posting this knowing full well I'm taking a big chance. I will close this thread in a fit of self moderation if we digress too far off topic. :swoon:

:eusa_pray

Adam Cherubini from Popular Woodworking Art's & Mysteries fame has thrown down a gauntlet. One I think is rather interesting.

Please read his blog and the comments, then I'd love to hear your take.
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/blog3/2010/08/04/GWOTGlobalWarOnTablesaws.aspx

First caveat, I am only speaking to hobbyist.

Any professional or someone making a go at making a living is in a different class.

I'm also in no way in favor of "outlawing" tablesaws. But, I see a real opportunity to change two fundamental and highly promoted "beliefs" in the workshop.

1. We must have a tablesaw at the heart of our shop.
2. Handsaws can't do the job.

First, I'd love to see a move away from promotion of the tablesaw in favor of the bandsaw or a guided circular saw.

I think, overall, that'd be a lot safer and more versatile. Supposing a mass migration to the bandsaw, I think the price point of a larger capacity saw would drop and likely improved accuracy for straight line ripping.

Second, in the past 5 years, we've seen a proliferation of high quality, real word furniture maker's handsaws. Not the Disston era carpentry saws nor the stamped stuff with plastic handles. These saws offer cutting speeds and accuracy that dwarf what most of us were "used to".

So, I could see a shift in "thinking" (again, not in laws) that guides the hobbyist towards a new mindset.

Now, I turn this loose to you all for what I hope to be a lively and on topic discussion

Jim

 

[sawduster]

This topic is actually quite timely to me personally as I have been contemplating how best to get my tablesaw out in the open so I can use it . Currently it is more " table " than saw and I have tried everything under the sun ( short of hand tools ) to do some of the things I need to do on the band saw and miter saw . I am not particularly interested at this time to learn all the various hand tools. Some day fer shure but not this day :mrgreen:
I am trying to take my pen making to a new level. I have what I think are creative ideas but being symmetrical in nature, pen designs and inlays have to be dead-on from an angular standpoint
I simply cannot accomplish this with a band saw or miter saw :nah: :BangHead:
There are probably lots of other options, but for me and based on what I already own, I feel I am being held back creatively by the inability of my present working arsenal

Strictly from a hobbiest/crafter POV , I believe a tablesaw is important

 

[bob vaughan]

Please read his blog and the comments, then I'd love to hear your take.
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/blog3/2010/08/04/GWOTGlobalWarOnTablesaws.aspx

So why isn't he advocating the use of Nerf balls for exclusive use in recreational basketball games?

Conspicuous in its absence is speculation on percentages of table users to table saw accidents. Negligence in personal responsibility can't be prevented whether its using a Ginsu on your tomatoes or a table saw in the basement.

His basic premise is an underlying assumption that his readers may not have a high level of cognitive skills. That writer knows his audience better than I do.

Likely he's just entertaining himself by trying to start a pointless debate.

 

[nelsone]

I don't think the TS really needs to be the heart of a shop or is even necessary. That said, I also think it really depends on the type of woodworking you want to do. If you are primarily interested in using sheet goods for projects a TS becomes more necessary.

I think a good bandsaw is a much more versatile and useful tool than a TS.

 

[Bill Clemmons]

1. We must have a tablesaw at the heart of our shop.
2. Handsaws can't do the job.

Good, thought provoking topic, Jim. I hope we can stay on topic and not turn this into a shouting match. Here are my thoughts:

Handsaws can certainly do the job, and have for centuries. A table saw is a matter of choice. In my case it is usually quicker, more accurate, and less strenuous than a hand saw. But there are still times when only a handsaw will do, and I would not want to be without my assorted handsaws.

We often tend to revere those early craftsmen who made such beautiful furniture using only hand tools. But here's a question: do we think if any one of them had suddenly had access to a table saw, they would have said, "No thanks, I'll stick w/ my hand saw." I think everyone of them used the very best, most advanced, tools they could get, and would have jumped at the chance to use a table saw.

As for a band saw replacing the table saw, there is no reason it can't. I know there are a number of quite proficient woodworkers who prefer a band saw over a table saw. Again, it's a matter of choice and what you're most comfortable using.

Isn't it nice that we have the choice. :icon_thum

Bill

 

[Dutchman]

I'd argue that if you could only have 1 power tool in your shop, most would make it a table saw. You can rip, dado, cut to lenght, shape with a molding head, use as a disc sander.

As far as a band saw goes, I use to do a lot of ripping in the sample shop on our band saw. Course it was a 36" tannewitz.

 

[Glennbear]

My tablesaw is the "heart" of my shop and I cannot envision that changing. There are other machines/hand tools that will do a lot of ts operations and I do utilize other methods. As Dutchman points out it does have many uses besides ripping. I think the future of the TS lies somewhere between the SawStop and the traditional guard mechanisms. The large percentage of ts injuries IMHO is directly related to the fact that most shops have one and it is usually the first tool a newbie woodworker buys. Shapers can be pretty hazardous but the number of injuries are not that high partly because few folks own them (I do). This is an interesting discussion and hopefully it will remain civil. :wsmile:

 

[Don Alexander]

there is no tool in any shop that isn't dangerous to some extent ........ 1 split second of inattention or carelessness or getting distracted can have disastrous results AND the tool doesn't have to even have to be electrically powered . How many times have you had a mishap with a tool of any kind and the first thought that goes through your mind is " wow that was DUMB" ?

if you are like me that pretty much discribes every tool related injury i have ever had (thankfully none that were major injuries, but some of them could have been easily enough)

my 2 cents on this subject is that until somebody comes up with a way to cut stuff with something that cannot possibly inflict harm on flesh there will be accidents with tools and inevitably some percentage of those will be serious thats life folks ...... it isn't foolproof safe in any aspect we can reduce the risk factor by learning proper and safe usage of tool , machine, car, whatever it is we are using , but 100% safety is not happening on this earth as long as there are people on it.

being careful , paying attention, proper tool usage , utilise risk reducing measures as much as reasonably possible ....... these are all good but far from 100%

1 other thought on tablesaws .......... deciding NOT to rip that badly warped, twisted, tension overloaded board is often the wisest course of action and goes along way toward making the saw safer to use

 

[froglips]

Before we wander too far afield

I'm not advocating eliminating the tablesaw. Not as a tool nor as an option. I'm also not under any misconception one can be 100% safe in any situation in life.

One of Adam Cherubini's later comments does clarify that.

Think of it another way, how many times have you heard a new woodworker say "if only I had a table saw I could ____". I also have enough personal experience to feel confident sharing that a disproportionate number of woodworkers are afraid of their table saw.

To me, that says we are locked in a mindset.

Imagine if you would, an article in a magazine that says:
Step 1, rip the board.
- a. you can use a tablesaw with a rip fence and push stick, heres some pics
- b. you can use your bandsaw. set it up this way, this kind of blade, pics
- c. you could use a rail guided circular saw. here is an option, setups pics
- d. you could use a handsaw filed rip. setup your sawbench, here are some pic
Step 2, cut to length etc etc

Yeah, that's way too much for one project article, but hopefully my point is "clear".

How many articles default to "rip this board to width on the tablesaw". Thereby painting the misconception that you must have a tablesaw to work wood successfully.

Hope this is fun, I do love thinking "what about's"

Jim

 

[JimmyC]

I love my tablesaw, it's in the center of the shop and used all of the time. We can all get by without certain tools if space was a concern. but my question to you Jim is whether you would be of a different mind if your shop was 400-600 sq/ft in size ?

Good thought provoking though.

 

[froglips]

Jimmy, my shop is 144 sq feet and yes, I do have a tablesaw

Jim

I love my tablesaw, it's in the center of the shop and used all of the time. We can all get by without certain tools if space was a concern. but my question to you Jim is whether you would be of a different mind if your shop was 400-600 sq/ft in size ?

Good thought provoking though.

 

[JimmyC]

I know the size of your shop:gar-Bi and I know you have a tablesaw, but if you had a bigger shop where the tablesaw would be easily accessible I'm sure you would appreciate it more. I've had a RAS for thirty years and seriously thought about getting rid of it in smaller shops, but now that I have more room I am happy that I kept it. For years it collected clutter and had to be cleaned before every use, now it's not the case and it's used, and appreciated, much more.

 

[Dragon]

:gar-Bi Ah, the joys of dimensional woodworkers. Well, seeing as how 99% of my wood crafting is done in the round, and pretty much with what nature hands me to work with, a table saw jes ain't gonna' work fer me, nah, not a'tall. Now, you tell me I gotta go back to the old ways of felling and cutting up trees with an axe and hand saw and I quit. Yep, gotta have my chainsaw and my routers.

Having said all that, I had an idea a few years back and went and bought a relatively cheapo Delta contractor's saw. It did what I needed done even though setting it for accuracy was bit on the trying side. Couple times I really wanted to drop-kick it through the field goal of life. It served its purpose and I made a little money in the process. "IF", (and that's a mighty big "if" there), I had a suitable shop area for putting a decent table saw in, I'd definitely have one. I don't think I'd go out and buy the most expensive with all the bells and whistles saw there is, but I'd likely have one just for those times when I want to work with something a little flatter than logs. My vote goes to having one if you have the place to put it. Ya never know when it might come in handy.

 

[CaptnA]

no. yes. who is to say?
It depends somewhat on what type of woodworking one does.
It is rare that a piece of wood I turn comes close to the table saw. Fred might cut all of his segments on his.
For accurately ripping boards my bandsaw limits me to about 12". My radial arm to not much more - and I don't want to use it for that. A handsaw is capable of any width ripping - but am I? I use my tablesaw for accurate cuts, it enhances my skills and physical abilities. My skillsaw has had many more closecalls than my tablesaw. The tablesaw is stable, the blade normally protected, I guide a piece of wood into a stationary secure machine, I have to expect and avoid kickback, binding, twisting, etc. On a circlesaw with a guide even I have to have someplace to secure the wood and some means of securing it, the stresses of the wood still may cause binding, twisting, kickback etc and my arms are holding a spining torque machine.
I don't have a high quality (high dollar) router or router table that I can cut dadoes with and again the radial arm has limits - and the totally exposed blade on it has sent chills down my spine many times more than a tablesaw ever has. I don't have any dado planes or rabbet planes and the only ones I've seen were overpriced antiques - yet probably capable of work much beyond my skill level.
For crosscutting, I rarely use the tablesaw as I usually am in the shop alone and I have a panel cutter, but even that is nice with more than 2 hands on a large board. For a quick single cut I grab a handsaw and cut usualy faster than I can set up the tablesaw. I guess I like options.

A few years after my son played tee ball they introduced the RIF ball, reduced injury factor. We went to just as many injuries as before - twisted ankles, possible fractured arms, heads knocked chasing the same ball. None relating to a child being hit with the ball. Kids got hit with balls before and after, both hurt. It was the other things kids do that we were called for in both situations.

A friend asked a question recently after a day of dealing with the results of so many poor choices people had made - I didn't have an answer but it made me stop a moment, have we so over-protected ourselves that we have altered natural selection??
Then we went and read the Darwin awards, just to reassure ourselves.

 

[BKind2Anmls]

This discussion sort of came up before when we had a new woodworker ask what is the first stationary power tool he should buy. While most recommended a table saw, I recommended a band saw based on my own experience. I still think, for a hobby woodworker, a band saw provides more bang-for-the-buck.

 

[Gotcha6]

I think that for some hobbyists the lure of the table saw is it's inherent danger. Much akin to guns, motorcycles or fast cars, we may wanna have the ability but sometimes forget the consequences that can occur. If we don't feel comfortable or do begin to feel complacent, then we shouldn't be there.
O2blues is a classic example of a WWer that had a TS and decided his need and comfort level working with power tools in general did not outweigh his ability to find other means of achieving a desired result. Kudos to him for doing that. It satisfied his needs without sacrificing his digits.

 

[Mike Davis]

I need mine, for now, and I don't understand why people consider them more dangerous than any other power tool. It was a router that got me, but I still have two of them.

That said, I am gathering tools that will allow me to make anything without power.

 

[Gofor]

Excluding possibly the Radial Arm Saw, for the non-specialized neophyte woodworker, I have come to the conclusion that a medium quality stationary 10" table saw is the most versatile tool for non-round milling of wood that you can buy for the money, when you add in bits, blades, and accessories. With jigs made from very inexpensive materials, you can take rough saw-milled lumber and turn it into very attractive and serviceable furniture. I

The caveats are that it must have a solid base, have a true fence or one that can be made true, a flat solid table top, and a true miter slot. A true miter gauge and dado stack are the needed accessories that will cost additional money over $50, and a good cross cut -combination blade may cost that much.
With this you can make the jigs out of inexpensive ply, MDF or scrap that enable you to:

Rip sawmill or chain-saw cut lumber to a straight edge
Establish a flat surface up to 3 1/2" (and possibly to 7") wide
Square and flatten all four sides
Accurately cut to length boards up to and exceeding four feet
Cut tenons
Cut miters and bevels with a glue edge
Cut dadoes and rabbets,
Resaw to 7" for book-matched panels,
Glue edge boards for panels, table tops, etc.
Cut some large molding shapes with the normal blade.
And cut more intricate moldings with a molding head, (although I would save this as a last resort as a cheap router and bit are probably safer and less likely to tear out for the same $$).

Items that can be made include: tables, chairs, cabinets & chests (with floating panel design if wanted), dressers, shelving units, etc. A hand drill and chisel will be needed to augment the TS for some items.

All of these techniques and the jigs needed are described in a variety of inexpensive "how-to" books.

A router with table would be the second choice as a "stationary" tool set up. With this you can do many of the above things, also with jigs, but when you add in the longevity of the bits and their cost against the dado blade and regular blade, it will quickly become more expensive to use the router than the TS.

A bandsaw, dependent on size, can rip and crosscut, as well as cut intricate curves, but must be of fairly significant size/cost to do larger items. It does not do glue line well (to my knowledge), and cannot cut dadoes and rabbets. Getting a flat, square, and straight edge of any length is not doable for most, requiring other tools to accomplish this. Moldings of any shape are pretty much impossible.

A thickness planer, jointer, or shaper cannot cross cut, rip, bevel, miter, nor cut tenons.

A lathe does round things well. (period)

Hand tools can also be bought to do many of these things. Having recently (in the last 5 years) gotten semi-serious into learning and using hand tools, I have learned that unless you have loads of time to visit auctions, flea markets, and antique stores to look for inexpensive diamonds in the rough, you can easily spend more than for a TS just getting the basic tools to saw, flatten, square and shape boards. Add to that the learning curve to produce a usable board, as well as to keep your tools sharp enough to keep cutting, it is time intensive beyond many working peoples means or interest level for the beginner. Roy Underhill and Chris Swartz make it look deceptively simple, and my heart-felt applause to them to bringing a greatly increased interest into this discipline. But for Joe Garage-shop that is working 40+ hours a week and whose wife is wanting some useable furniture that isn't in the budget, its just not doable in the near future.

As for safety, it is really no more complicated than "Keep all body parts away from the moving parts of the machine". As with everything else, it requires attention to the task and lack of distractions. Life does not allow us the absence of these, and so accidents will continue to happen, in all walks of life and with all sorts of occupations. Despite the best efforts of the safety community, accidents still occur and will continue to.

That applies to all machinery of any type. From the Kitchen-Ade to the window fan. Table saw kickback injuries occur, but I would venture to guess that permanently disabling ones among hobbyist are probably in the numerical realm of those caused by hand routers, and less than those caused by power drills. Judging by the news, I would also guess that there is much more damage and serious injuries caused by fires on unattended stoves than by table saws, but I don't see requirements for personal proximity sensors on kitchen stoves to require someone to be in attendance while the burners are on. Lets face it, with the advent of the microwave, no one HAS to cook on a stove anymore, so any argument that a table saw is a hobbyist tool needing more stringent oversight, and not a needed item is invalid.

Instead of "banning the table saw" or making it unaffordable or unuseable due to safety features, the effort should be in developing safer technology like an affordable laser cutter that would cut and shape a piece of wood to exact dimensions without moving parts and that is fool proof.

But then, where would the fun be in that?

JMTCW

Go

 

[Don Alexander]

well said Mark :wsmile:

one very widely used and potentially dangerous item that has had many, many safety features built into it and still dishes out severe injuries is the lawnmower . i was reminded of this fact just yesterday when i was mowing the lawn and put the lawn tractor in reverse and the machine shut off. geesh

anyway back to the tablesaw.............. not necessary perhaps but definitely makes it easier to make cool stuff ; i've made furniture with it and without it and definitely prefer with it :gar-Bi

 

[zapdafish]

I'd cry if I didn't have mine :cry_smile