Staining Mahogany

[Willemjm]

Restoring a reasonable quality dining leaf table for my neighbor who is the DA.

I guess production of this piece was somewhere in the early 60’s. The top is 1/32” genuine Honduras Mahogany which was stained “Bombay Mahogany” with a Shellac finish. With the purple color I guessed it was Sapele, but after stripping the finish the unmistakable really pretty figured Mahogany appeared. I now have to try and replicate the original purple color.

So here is my question:
Why would anyone stain the real pretty color of Mahogany and hide it’s beautiful figure? Is it just because that is what the uninformed consumer wants?

 

[Henry W]

Willem
When I saw your title I really wondered what the context of your question or comment was going to be. Can't answer your question , but I have a similar one.

I recently refinished a portion of a desk for a client. He said it was solid cherry, and I thought that might have been 'furniture store speak'. When I stripped it, it really was prime grade solid cherry, beautiful.. It had then been completely masked by a dark 'cherry' stain and thick finish that I wonder why they bothered using cherry. Poplar with green mineral streaks would have looked the same with that finish. I guess as a desk cherry might have better hardness; not that that mattered because he used a blotter or desk pad to 'protect it' anyways! That was the issue as the foam backing on that blotter had reacted with the finish to disintegrate both!

 

[chris_goris]

Why not use dye?

 

[bob vaughan]

Why would anyone stain the real pretty color of Mahogany and hide it’s beautiful figure? Is it just because that is what the uninformed consumer wants?

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

H. L. Mencken

 

[Willemjm]

No problems staining, used my own blend of Transtint, water a rag and here we go with an exact color match.

 

[Oka]

I use so much Mahogany in Hawaii it is really used like Pine or Poplar, mostly because of the cost.

If you want to stain toward the red side of the color world, take a test location on the back side and mix a one part water to one part baking soda mix then put wipe on wet on the test area on the back side. Then watch for the reaction. This will give you a permewnant change in the wood color, if Red is the desire, it usually makes the wood go dark red, but it not the same from one piece to another.

The most common stain I use is black, wipe on and watch to see how it is absorbing, then wipe off after a 1-3 mins. Then repeat if you want darker, this tends to take out some the red hue a bit and blend the piece's color to the surrounding areas. The Black usually will not make it really that dark, at least the way I apply it because I can control how much color I want on the piece.The dying method I use is amber it enriches the piece of wood's color and darkens toward the yellow or gold side of hues.

Then shellac ........ TBH, I have probably 4-500 bd ft of Mahogany I bought at an auction for for a song. So I have been playing around with Mahogany quite a bit. Still haven't decided what my favorite way to finish Mahogany, fun wood to work with though, easy to sand, glues nicely and light, compared to most the other woods I use.

 

[Willemjm]

I use so much Mahogany in Hawaii it is really used like Pine or Poplar, mostly because of the cost.

If you want to stain toward the red side of the color world, take a test location on the back side and mix a one part water to one part baking soda mix then put wipe on wet on the test area on the back side. Then watch for the reaction. This will give you a permewnant change in the wood color, if Red is the desire, it usually makes the wood go dark red, but it not the same from one piece to another.

The most common stain I use is black, wipe on and watch to see how it is absorbing, then wipe off after a 1-3 mins. Then repeat if you want darker, this tends to take out some the red hue a bit and blend the piece's color to the surrounding areas. The Black usually will not make it really that dark, at least the way I apply it because I can control how much color I want on the piece.The dying method I use is amber it enriches the piece of wood's color and darkens toward the yellow or gold side of hues.

Then shellac ........ TBH, I have probably 4-500 bd ft of Mahogany I bought at an auction for for a song. So I have been playing around with Mahogany quite a bit. Still haven't decided what my favorite way to finish Mahogany, fun wood to work with though, easy to sand, glues nicely and light, compared to most the other woods I use.

Interesting, where are the logs harvested and is it Swietenia macrophylla?

 

[chris_goris]

Im quite sure that is sapele.... some call it african mahogany as well.

 

[Oka]

Honduran Mahogany vs Sapele vs African Mahogany vs South American varieties

Sapele, looks similar to Mahogany, but it is way harder ........ way harder while all the Mahoganies are from the Swietenia family Sapele is not (Entandrophragma cylindricum). Sapele is grown in the East African region whereas, African Mahogany is West African region.

They do satin similar and finish similar but sand one versus the other, and you will instantly know which is which. I have some Trunk Sapele wood that is curly I used for the Disc sander table guide. The stuff it rock hard......... and pretty cool looking.

Woods you can use for strength that are very hard and not expensive- Ipe, Balau, and Sapele.
At least here they are the least expensive, less than Oak

 

[Willemjm]

Im quite sure that is sapele.... some call it african mahogany as well.

Read my first post.

 

[chris_goris]

Read my first post.

read my last post! I have a pile of that in my attic, 300 BF , it all looks just like that. If they told you its honduran, they lied.

 

[Willemjm]

read my last post! I have a pile of that in my attic, 300 BF , it all looks just like that. If they told you its honduran, they lied.

Wanna place a bet on that one? Stained it looks just like Sapele, that is what I also thought, in fact I was convinced. After stripping the finish, the color streaks are gone and it is genuine Honduran Mahogany, no doubt. Where I grew up and was apprenticed we would only use Sapele for drawer sides. I have both in my shop, the pile from Honduras has been with me for over 20 years.

 

[chris_goris]

Wanna place a bet on that one? Stained it looks just like Sapele, that is what I also thought, in fact I was convinced. After stripping the finish, the color streaks are gone and it is genuine Honduran Mahogany, no doubt. Where I grew up and was apprenticed we would only use Sapele for drawer sides. I have both in my shop, the pile from Honduras has been with me for over 20 years.

Not sure how youd prove it or disprove it, we'll just have to agree to disagree....its your project, I dont really care what you want to call it.

 

[Willemjm]

Not sure how youd prove it or disprove it, we'll just have to agree to disagree....its your project, I dont really care what you want to call it.

Darn, I thought you would wager a bet, so I can make some money on this one. See, I am doing it free for my neighbor.

 

[bob vaughan]

If someone states with confidence that the species is swietenia macrophylla, then I'd have a tendency to go with that.

I first started working with that wood in the mid 1970s and loved it. I was working for a mill work company at the time. 20" wide boards 16 or more feet long perfectly clear boards were no big deal at the time. There was always a wide range of color and often hardness, but the wood was always Swietenia macrophylla. Ten years later and on my own, I did a mahogany job for someone and was forced by virtue of availability, to use "African" mahogany plywood. To the customer's eyes, it was fine but not to my eyes. The African mahogany veneer on the plywood had a coarseness that was almost vulgar when put beside the swietenia macrophylla I was using as a solid wood. The plywood veneer darkened adequately when given the potassium dichromate treatment but it didn't have the depth of character. I attributed that to being a veneer, but later exposure to the various solid wood not Swietenia macrophylla mahoganys, my opinion stayed the same.

Like they say, no pictures, didn't happen. Below are some shots I'd taken of the job. It was pretty much a plywood box job decorated to look nice. The desk was a pain.

The desk that shows the contrast between the coarseness of African Mahogany and swietenia macrophylla.

Parts being finished. The African mahogany reacts a little differently. I can see it, but many can't.

Book case. Flat panels are African mahogany plywood. The solid wood trimmings are real mahogany. I can clearly tell the difference even though the customer didn't or at least didn't care.

 

[Willemjm]

If someone states with confidence that the species is swietenia macrophylla, then I'd have a tendency to go with that.

I first started working with that wood in the mid 1970s and loved it. I was working for a mill work company at the time. 20" wide boards 16 or more feet long perfectly clear boards were no big deal at the time. There was always a wide range of color and often hardness, but the wood was always Swietenia macrophylla. Ten years later and on my own, I did a mahogany job for someone and was forced by virtue of availability, to use "African" mahogany plywood. To the customer's eyes, it was fine but not to my eyes. The African mahogany veneer on the plywood had a coarseness that was almost vulgar when put beside the swietenia macrophylla I was using as a solid wood. The plywood veneer darkened adequately when given the potassium dichromate treatment but it didn't have the depth of character. I attributed that to being a veneer, but later exposure to the various solid wood not Swietenia macrophylla mahoganys, my opinion stayed the same.

Like they say, no pictures, didn't happen. Below are some shots I'd taken of the job. It was pretty much a plywood box job decorated to look nice. The desk was a pain.

View attachment 192637
The desk that shows the contrast between the coarseness of African Mahogany and swietenia macrophylla.

View attachment 192638
Parts being finished. The African mahogany reacts a little differently. I can see it, but many can't.


View attachment 192639
Book case. Flat panels are African mahogany plywood. The solid wood trimmings are real mahogany. I can clearly tell the difference even though the customer didn't or at least didn't care.

Pretty work, pretty wood. The thing these days with Mahogany is as far as the layman knows, any poor substitute is called Mahogany.

 

[DickF]

For me this is a great lesson on differences in wood that frequently go by the same, or similar, common name - thanks! Bob, I can see the differences you mention in the bookcase - beautiful workmanship nonetheless! This give me something to aspire to as I continue to develop my corona skill!

 

[Jeff]

Willem, I'd go with your id as South American mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla).

Is there a chance that you can persuade your neighbor to go with the natural mahogany wood after you clean it up and forget about replicating the original purple stain color?

Why would anyone stain the real pretty color of Mahogany and hide it’s beautiful figure? Is it just because that is what the uninformed consumer wants?

 

[bob vaughan]

Why furniture manufacturers put those stains on mahogany is an easy answer. Color consistency. If a furniture maker is putting out 3000 tables per year, those tables are going to have to look somewhat alike. Mahogany gets pretty wild in its natural state. Flip a board the wrong way and the chatoyance makes it look like two different species of wood. Economic production processes override the need of a skilled operator arranging the wood so it finishes the same.

After WWII, mahogany got real popular because it was an easy wood to process. It was very stable and didn't warp or twist as much when cut up into smaller pieces. It also carved well. That's why it was revered by the cabinet makers of the 1700s.

Below is an example of that. From a used furniture store, I bought a mahogany drop leaf table for my son's immediate need for a table. Later he gave the table back to me as we had predicted. I cut up the mahogany to make a couple of mini night stands. I tried to be careful in choosing the wood, but there was a couple of areas in the original glue-up that had strong contrast. I just had to live with it and used that for the base moulding. It still irks me to this day when I happen to notice the contrast but there's nothing I can do about it. The contrast will fade over time but will always be there to some minor degree.

Table parts during the process of "re-purposing". One can see the dark splotches of original stain on the edges The table, in its original form looked pretty uniform in color.

Look at the base moulding on the lower left. That's just the way it is. The project sanded and lacquered with no stain at all. The mahogany looks great this way but I'm doing a one-off sort of thing and am not a maker of 3000 units per year.

 

[Jeff]

Bob, the production process is a good explanation for why beautiful wood was routinely stained to achieve uniformity in appearance.

Thanks.