Rookie Question

[flatheadfisher]

I am just getting started in woodworking - making furniture. I don't know all the correct terms to use so forgive my ignorance here. I have been buying oak from Lowe's Hardware and it is very expensive. I know it must be much less expensive to buy a planer and smooth the wood myself. Here are my questions about this:

1. How much cheaper would it be? A 8 x 4 x 1 at Lowe's costs about 15 bucks or so.

2. Do I also need a band saw and a jointer to get the edges square or does the wood come with square sides?

3. Will a good planer get the wood as smooth as what I have been buying?

4. How hard is it to find unfinished wood? I live in Winston-Salem.

5. Is the wood typically dried already?

6. What other questions should I be asking?

Thanks!

 

[DaveO]

I am just getting started in woodworking - making furniture. I don't know all the correct terms to use so forgive my ignorance here. I have been buying oak from Lowe's Hardware and it is very expensive. I know it must be much less expensive to buy a planer and smooth the wood myself. Here are my questions about this:

1. How much cheaper would it be? A 8 x 4 x 1 at Lowe's costs about 15 bucks or so. That is about 2.6 BF and at $15 you're paying $5.50-6.00 for flat sawn Red Oak. It can be bought for $2-3 a BF rough sawn. Plus you have much more control over the thickness and flatness. I have not seen a flat, straight board in the BORGS collection, but being already planed to ¾" thickness you have no room to fix it

2. Do I also need a band saw and a jointer to get the edges square or does the wood come with square sides?
Rough sawn lumber doesn't come with a straight edge, although you can buy it from a real wood supplier straight-line ripped or even S2S. You do need a jointer or a good working knowledge of a handplane to true the edge and face of rough sawn stock. A BS is handy but you can make jigs to do the same on a TS, with a cir saw or even a router

3. Will a good planer get the wood as smooth as what I have been buying? It has been run through a planer to smooth it, so yes

4. How hard is it to find unfinished wood? I live in Winston-Salem. No if you know where to go. I am not familiar with the WS area but it's not to far from the Hardwood Store in Gibbsonville which is a great source. Plus being able to deal with rough sawn lumber will open up your pallet to many more wood species. Our local sawyers list will direct you to small sawyering businesses that can provide you wood that you won't find in the main-stream market

5. Is the wood typically dried already? Often, but not always. Kiln drying cost money and that is passed on the the consumer. You can save even more money by buying your lumber either green or air-dried and finishing it of yourself

6. What other questions should I be asking? How large of a jointer and planer do I need? How do I evaluate rough sawn lumber for quality/figure? Where are the best places in my area to buy real wood? What the heck is a BF, S2S, S4S, FAS, & Select? Where am I gonna put all this wood I just got a great deal on?

Thanks!

You're welcome :icon_thum

Dave

 

[flatheadfisher]

Thanks for taking to time to answer these questions, Dave. Your response will get me going in the right direction! I think some new tools are in my future.

 

[ptt49er]

I think some new tools are in my future.

It's no longer a thinking about getting, it's a needing. The only thinking left is to figure out which you want to buy!

 

[Mike Davis]

It depends on how much wood you will use over the next, say, year or so.

1 x 4 x 8ft = <3 board feet. A board foot is 1 inch thick x 12 inches wide x 12 inches long and any combination that adds up to 144 cubic inches in the rough. So when you buy wood at BORG it is 3/4 but they charge you for 1 inch thick (actually a lot more).

I've been paying around $2 a bd ft for dry rough oak. Somebody correct me cause I know that not exactly right.

So your board should cost less than $9 plus your time to plane it, overhead, machinery amortized, etc, etc.

Now, what will you need in the way of machinery?

Minimum=
(1) a 6 inch jointer to flatten one side and straighten one edge. $150-600
(2) a 12 inch lunch box planer $90-300

Better=
(1) an 8 inch jointer to flatten one side and straighten one edge. $750-2000
(2) a 15-18 inch planer $600-1500

Best can get very expensive.

I listed prices from good used if you shop carefully to standard new if you shop around.

Then you have to divide the price of the tools by the number of board feet you expect to buy and subtract the base price of the rough wood to see how much you might save.

On first glance it looks like 1000 bd ft purchase can justify the better equipment.

The subjective benefit is the fact that you will have more control over your wood quality and the quality of the work you do. Plus you may be able to move up to better or more exotic species of wood.

One other thing you have to consider is your available space for tools and wood storage. If you have to build a bigger shop or rent space to store wood you may be better off to buy small quantities of finished wood.

I can't believe it took me 20 minutes to type that. Really must learn to type better.

 

[Bryan S]

I think some new tools are in my future.

Been a member here 4 days now and already infected with WGD :gar-La;

The Hardwood Store is a great place to get lumber and is about an hour drive for you. You may be closer to Wall Lumber though.

Good points from Dave and Mike. My advice for any tool purchases
-take your time, you do not need everything right now,
-let your planned use help dictate how much to spend,
-don't be afraid to buy used you can save a lot of money.

 

[flatheadfisher]

Thanks for your brain power and typing time, Mike. This is something that I am going to have to consider very carefully and your input really helps. It is such a pain to try and find good boards at the box stores. I bought one store out and they haven't replaced their stock yet. The other stores don't have much to pick through. And, I sometimes get home and find some boards that I wish I didn't get. So, that would be a real advantage to doing it myself. Storage is an issue. My shop is 12 x 24 but I built it when my wife kept complaining about all my fishing and hunting stuff in the house. It is full of shelves and things that are in the way of my new woodworking hobby. I do have a lean-to shed on the side that I just built to put my boat under. It could become storage space. I hate to spend a lot (more) money on a something I have just started to enjoy. However, the more wood I buy at the box store, the more money I could be "saving" by doing it myself. I guess I need to figure out how much stuff I intend to build in the future. I know I am going to finish the bedroom furniture - another chest of drawers, a wardrobe, and a smaller chest for odds and ends. Then I want to redo the kitchen cabinets. But that will be mostly frame and panel stuff with plywood.

Decisions, decisions, decisions! I think I will build one more piece getting the wood from the box store and going from there. That will give me time to do some more learning, thinking, and calculating.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Bas]

Lowe's & Home Depot are usually limited to poplar and red oak. That's not bad (I like both!), but it's nice to work with something else now and then.

A jointer isn't strictly necessary to prepare stock. You can joint the edges of a board by hand, with a router or on the table saw. Face jointing (the wide side) can be done by hand or with a planer and a sled. A jointer is obviously the most efficient method, but a planer/ sled is still less frustrating and less time consuming than trying to make poor stock work. A small ("lunchbox") planer doesn't cost a lot of money, and doesn't take up a lot of space. You'll make that money back fast.

Don't get me wrong, a jointer is an extremely useful tool. But, not too long ago I made stair treads that were 12" wide - too much for my little 6" jointer. With the table saw and planer + sled, I got everything flat, square and straight. And at $1.50/ board foot, I saved quite a bit....

 

[Trent Mason]

The replies that have been written so far are far better than I can word any of that, but I would like to add one point. If space is an issue for you, put a lot of your tools on casters. Then you can move them around in the shop or into the driveway if you're milling large stock. That is the only option for me in my 10x15' shop. HTH

 

[Mike Davis]

Michael,

My shop is only 16x16 and over 1/3 of it is storage. You are welcome to come see what i have and how I work any weekend. Just PM me or e-mail. I'm not too far from you and you also have a closer neighbor in LeftyTom. He knows the way and would probably come too, If you want company on the ride.

Tom might even plane a little wood to help get you started as I'm sure anyone else here would be happy to help in any way.

A lean to is a great place to store green wood, I have been thinking about adding one to my shop.

 

[flatheadfisher]

Thanks, Mike. That sounds like fun.

 

[Travis Porter]

FWIW, you can go to a lot of the hardwood stores and buy your wood planed and straight lined ripped very cost effectively. Wall lumber does it for around 30 cents a board foot I think. Buy your oak for around $2.50 a board foot, spend 30 cents a bf to surface 4 sides, and it will still cost you only a 1/4th of what you pay at Lowes. That way, you don't rush into buying tools (not that I have any experience with that), and you can shop around. Some of the best tools I have bought are used tools that I paid a lot less than what they would have cost new.

 

[rickc]

If space is an issue for you, put a lot of your tools on casters. Then you can move them around in the shop or into the driveway if you're milling large stock.

Might also want to consider making some of the "flip-type" cabinets to use for things like the "lunch box" planer and maybe oscillating sander (or something similar). Those would also serve as good "first projects".

Ex: Wood Flip Top Cabinet
How to Build a Great Home Workshop - see page 152 for a picture. (This is a site for previewing one of their publications.) Still has some VERY nice ideas for a home shop - space saving and storage.

Rick

 

[flatheadfisher]

Steve Wall Lumber Company to the Rescue

I just got back from Wall Lumber Company and I think they are the solution to my problem. They have an excellent supply, good price, and they planed and put a straight edge on my boards for a nominal fee. It took about 30 minutes to drive there but it wasn't a bad drive. The people there were very friendly and were eager to help me out when I told them I was just getting started. I could have spent several hours looking at the stacks of wood. I was amazed with all of the different varieties they had and how large some of the pieces were. They also had the plywood that I have been looking so hard for.

I still think a planer and jointer is in my future. But, I am content to use Wall's service until I know what I want. Thanks for all the input!

 

[JimD]

Re: Steve Wall Lumber Company to the Rescue

I have a jointer/planner, an old INCA 410 that does both (has a separate planner attachment), but I still normally buy S2S wood. That is what my local dealer sells and it saves me the work. I use the table saw to rip a straight edge. It seems quicker and easier than using the jointer to me. I pay $3-4 for oak and get nicer wood than I have seen at Lowes or Home Depot.

If I used more rough lumber, I would probably buy a Ryobi planner for about $200. It is not the best model but has been rated a "best buy". You can rig a board to go on the bottom to hold it flat so you can plane one side, then flip it and plane the other.

In other words, there are ways to work around the lack of a jointer.

I think a good table saw should be the first "big" tool if you want to make furniture with straight lines or cabinets. I use a Ryobi BT3100 which is not sold anymore. You can still get the Sears model which folds up and rolls. It does not look like a serious table saw but will do precision work. Mine has extension rails and my maximum rip is about 60 inches. A more conventional choice would be a hybrid saw - reviewed in the current Wood magazine.

Jim

 

[merrill77]

If you are just getting started - you might want to try an interim step before jumping into a planer and buying rough lumber. Most good lumber stores sell S2S and S4S in addition to rough lumber (S2S = surfaced 2 sides). If you start with S2S, then you only have to straighten the edges, which is easily done on a table saw or with a router jig. You can usually specify what thickness you would like. S4S will give you 2 straight edges as well, IIRC. The Hardwood Store and Steve Wall Lumber comes to mind.

I bought my lumber that way for several years before buying a planer. I have no regrets about waiting - it was one less thing to worry about when I was still learning how to get a decent glue joint :>

 

[flatheadfisher]

You are right about the table saw, Jim. I bought a Rigid model after I built the first two pieces. I also used it to straighten the other sides of the rough lumber that I just bought. It works well, especially with the upgraded blade. I love it for cutting dados. I really need a dado blade - I am getting tired of moving the fence so many times to get the width correct. - especially with the thin kerf blade. My table's fence only goes to 26" I need to figure out those extensions, it would be nice to rip larger plywood without the hassle. My wife would probably pay for it - she is getting tired of helping me! But, it is much better than using a circular saw.

I have been enjoying using a hand plane to smooth the wood and the edges. But, that takes lots of time and energy! I am going to wait a while and see what happens...

Thanks!

 

[JimD]

When you get ready for a dado blade, you should check out the least expensive Freud. That is what I use after buying several less expensive sets that were not worth buying. It's about $80. It cuts smooth and leaves a flat bottom. It has a slight negative hook which helps when you have a table saw with a 110 V motor - not a big 5hp cabinet saw. The negative hook keeps it from pulling itself into the wood faster than it can really cut.

Jim

 

[Jeff]

I've been through your predicament as I'm also pretty new to woodworking. As other members have emphasized storage space and economics is a big factor. I don't have a jointer, planer, or band saw; nor do I have space for them and that's been okay thus far.

I've been buying S4S lumber from the Hardwood Store in Gibsonville and they are really good to work with. Their charge is $0.80/bf for S4S service and what I've purchased has been of excellent quality. They'll deliver or ship UPS (charged for either one) and with today's gas prices a 100 mile round trip from my home to their store is just not good economics for me. The downside is that you don't get to hand select your order; I recently bought some cherry that had a fair amount of sapwood and after I voiced my displeasure they replaced the entire order at no charge. BTW sapwood is not considered to be a grading defect in the hardwood industry like knots, checking, etc.

I have no personal experience with Wall's, but have read many good comments from other members. Their surfacing charges are similar to The Hardwood Store.

Tools. I've got a Bosch 4000 portable saw with a very handy folding stand; got it for about $500 at Lowe's. I'm very pleased with it and it was tuned well right out of the box. I added a Freud "Glue Line Rip Blade" and a 6" stacked dado set to complement the standard Bosch blade. Also bought a DeWalt router package containing a standard base, D-base, and plunge router. A few basic router bits (search for recommendations on Google) have been sufficient for my needs. Their's a million and one cheap homemade jigs out there for doing joinery stuff with both the table saw and router.

Hand tools. A couple of butt chisels, #4 planer, low-angle block plane, shoulder plane, and a card scraper (I love this little gadget). Veritas makes a nifty MKII honing guide for consistent sharpening.

Question: How can I do quality work that I'm proud of and strive to improve without incurring a second mortgage? Don't forget the ever present "wife factor" in your deliberations (read, "You paid $3000 to build a bedroom set?" :slap: :dontknow:

Good luck.

 

[flatheadfisher]

I resemble your last sentence about paying so much to get to build a bedroom suite. That is how I got into all of this to start with! I am going to hold off on the planer and jointer. It is well worth the expense to have Walls dress the lumber for me. One of these days, I might take the jump. For now, I will enjoy using my hand tools.

I recently bought the Veritas Honing System and I like it a lot. I still can't get the radius correct on the blade for smoothing...