resawing QS white oak question

Status
Not open for further replies.

zapdafish

Steve
Corporate Member
Whats the best way to get flat 1/2" thick QS white oak.

I resawed a 5/4 board into two pieces and the following day it had cupped pretty badly. It was stored overnight with ample air to reach both sides of the boards. To re flatten it via jointer / planner / sander / handplane would have removed way too much material. It's been in my garage for almost 2 yrs and was bought kiln dried so I think it's just the nature of the wood releasing stresses rather than moisture content issues.

I am in the process of making some grooving planes out of QS white oak using the laminating method. I glued the suckers up anyways and used clamps to make sure everything was flat and it seems to have worked.

I can't imagine the best way would be to take 5/4 and run it through a planer until its 1/2". I'd like to make some panels in the near future and would prefer solid wood since I have it instead of veneered.
 

CDPeters

Master of None
Chris
Scott Smith is probably our expert on this, but it seems like a 5/4 quarter sawn, kiln dried, resawed should not cup badly. I've had flatsawn cup like that when resawn, but QS cupping seems odd to me.

You took all the right steps, so maybe you're correct in that it was internal stresses.
 

Graywolf

Board of Directors, President
Richard
Staff member
Corporate Member
Sounds like stress to me. I have had some that was air dried do something similar and it calmed down over time. You could give it an anti depressant and see if that helps :gar-Bi.
 

Mike Davis

Mike
Corporate Member
I have a friend who makes violins, he has been working with hard maple and soft fir since
he was 20 yo and he is now 85. Still one of the brightest people I know.

He told me when he has a cupped board he takes it outside and lays it in the grass
in direct sun with the cupped side down.

He said you have to be careful or it will cup in the opposite direction.
 

zapdafish

Steve
Corporate Member
I'll try crushing some Xanax and adding it to my glue, hopefully that will relieve some of the stress.

I've been working my way to doing something like this so ultimately the battens would keep the panel flat and straight but would kinda suck to have to figure out how to keep the panels flat while I worked on it.

attachment.php

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2017/05/31/lighter-stronger-frame-panels


I've got some bowclamps that I would probably use to hold the panel flat against my workbench while I cut the grooves.



I'll def try laying it out in the sun and see how it goes. Still in the experimental and learning phase. Trying to do as much by handtools as possible.
 

Attachments

  • 011262052-700x394.jpg
    011262052-700x394.jpg
    48.2 KB · Views: 344
Last edited:

Mike Davis

Mike
Corporate Member
Not really unless you are in a severe drought area. Most of the time the ground is not as dry as you think.
 

scsmith42

New User
Scott Smith
Whats the best way to get flat 1/2" thick QS white oak.

I resawed a 5/4 board into two pieces and the following day it had cupped pretty badly. It was stored overnight with ample air to reach both sides of the boards. To re flatten it via jointer / planner / sander / handplane would have removed way too much material. It's been in my garage for almost 2 yrs and was bought kiln dried so I think it's just the nature of the wood releasing stresses rather than moisture content issues.

I am in the process of making some grooving planes out of QS white oak using the laminating method. I glued the suckers up anyways and used clamps to make sure everything was flat and it seems to have worked.

I can't imagine the best way would be to take 5/4 and run it through a planer until its 1/2". I'd like to make some panels in the near future and would prefer solid wood since I have it instead of veneered.


Steve, which way did the boards cup? Away from the resawn kerf or towards it? (see attached drawing).

View attachment resaw kerf cupping.pdf
 

scsmith42

New User
Scott Smith
90% sure it was B


If it was B it means that the outer portion of your lumber had a higher MC% than the core. After resawing the exposed core absorbed moisture to equalize with the former outer shell and that side of the resawn boards expanded.

Kiln dried white oak does not absorb moisture in the core of the boards very quickly because the tyloses in the cells blocks moisture absorption. That's why it's used for wine and whiskey barrels.
 

PhilCK

Phil
Corporate Member
If it was B it means that the outer portion of your lumber had a higher MC% than the core. After resawing the exposed core absorbed moisture to equalize with the former outer shell and that side of the resawn boards expanded.

Kiln dried white oak does not absorb moisture in the core of the boards very quickly because the tyloses in the cells blocks moisture absorption. That's why it's used for wine and whiskey barrels.

So incomplete drying in the core for white oak and nothing that can be done about it as the cupped state is in moisture equilibrium?
 

scsmith42

New User
Scott Smith
So incomplete drying in the core for white oak and nothing that can be done about it as the cupped state is in moisture equilibrium?

Incorrect. If the core was a higher MC% than the shell, the resawn pieces would have moved in accordance with "a" in the drawing when the resawn board faces that were formerly the core of the board continued to dry. Lumber shrinks as it dries.

What most likely happened in Steve's situation was that the shell of the board regained moisture after kiln drying. This will occur if lumber has not been stored in a humidity controlled environment after coming out of the kiln. White oak can be problematic because the tyloses in the pores significantly deter the core from regaining moisture.

In order to successfully resaw, the core and shell of the board must be at the same MC%.
 
Last edited:

PhilCK

Phil
Corporate Member
OK, I see you point. But either cannot be fixed- either stress relived or moisture equilibrates, correct?
 

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
Hate to sound difficult but with all the advice there is still a looming question I can't figure without a picture. What is the grain pattern?

It seems like we're detectives looking for a missing person and we don't have a photo to reference. Just me.
 

Jeff

New User
Jeff
Here's where we are today and Steve hasn't said much about what his cupped wood has done since then.

I resawed a 5/4 board into two pieces and the following day it had cupped pretty badly. It was stored overnight with ample air to reach both sides of the boards. To re flatten it via jointer / planner / sander / handplane would have removed way too much material. It's been in my garage for almost 2 yrs and was bought kiln dried so I think it's just the nature of the wood releasing stresses rather than moisture content issues.

2 quarter sawn pcs about 5/8"t each that cupped. Still cupped after about

and....

What most likely happened in Steve's situation was that the shell of the board regained moisture after kiln drying. This will occur if lumber has not been stored in a humidity controlled environment after coming out of the kiln. White oak can be problematic because the tyloses in the pores significantly deter the core from regaining moisture.

I don't know if this is a general occurrence or just a few funny boards in Steve's stash. Why wasn't the original 5/4 board already cupped after 2 years in his garage? :icon_scra
 

Berta

Berta
Corporate Member
I realize this is from a scroll saw related issue , but what so you have to lose?
this is related to 1/4” wood so I wwould expect to wet it more, especially on the outer edges. I would also lightly weight it in the middle.

Another trick is to wet one side of the board and set it in the sun. The theory is that the cupping is due to uneven drying. Place the board on a flat surface, cup side up. Lightly moisten the top surface and allow the sun to dry it. You could use a hair dryer or heat gun if you prefer. Theoretically this allows the wood cells on the top surface to shrink and compress, bringing the board back flat. If the cell compression has been permanently set in this board, the cup will likely eventually return, but it may be worth a try.

 

scsmith42

New User
Scott Smith
2 quarter sawn pcs about 5/8"t each that cupped. Still cupped after about

and....

I don't know if this is a general occurrence or just a few funny boards in Steve's stash. Why wasn't the original 5/4 board already cupped after 2 years in his garage? :icon_scra

OK, let me elaborate on my original post. Sometimes this concept can be difficult to follow if you're not in the lumber drying business.

For starters, Danmart the board in question is quartersawn, but both QS and FS lumber will cup after resawing if differences in MC% exist between the shell and the core of the board and the board is resawn into two equal thickness pieces. The direction of the cup will be based upon which part of the board had the higher MC% before resawing.

Let's start off with a 5/4 thick quartersawn white oak board that has been kiln dried down to 6% MC throughout, and stored in a humidity controlled warehouse. Wally Woodworker purchases said board and takes it home and stores it in his non-humidity controlled garage shop. Being online, Wally has "learned" from the Internet that he should store his lumber stickered in his shop (which is not a good idea in this instance. I'll elaborate more below).

Wally's shop is a garage, and it's not humidity controlled. For discussion purposes let's say that the relative humidity in Wally's shop averages around 53% relative humidity and the temperature averages around 75 degrees F. In this environment, the equilibrium moisture content for lumber will be 10%, so Wally's lumber starts to increase in moisture content from the shell inward.

Jeff, in answer to your question Wally's boards didn't cup while being stored because each face is regaining the same amount of moisture in his shop. Moisture related cupping is caused by unequal MC% on each face of the board that subsequently equalize. In Wally's situation both faces have regained the same amount of MC% in his non climate controlled garage because they were stored stickered. This creates internal stresses on the board from core to shell that show up after resawing (or if not resawn but face jointed and planed they wood will move if you don't remove the same amount of thickness from each face of the board.)

Because Wally's lumber is white oak, it is very resistant to changes in MC%. White oak is a close pored lumber, with the cellular openings filled with a product called Tyloses. Think of tyloses as similar to plaque in a human artery. They fill up the artery and block the flow of blood. In the case of wood, tyloses block the conveyance of moisture, which is one of the reasons that white oak is so difficult (and time consuming) to dry. Kiln operators typically have to really crank up the temperature in their kilns in order to help cook the moisture out of the wood. Tyloses are also why white oak is very rot and water resistant and used to build ships and whiskey barrels.

So, after a few months in Wally's garage, stickered and exposed to ambient RH% on both faces of the board, a cross section of the MC% gradient in the board will look like this:

attachment.php


Note that the outer portions of the board have equalized with their environment in Wally's garage and regained some moisture - up to 10%MC or so around the shell of the board. However, because of the tyloses the core of the board has not regained moisture and is still at 6% MC.

Wally wants to use thinner boards in a project, so he resaws his 5/4 thick QSWO board through the center. When he does so, the two resawn pieces have unequal MC% on each face, with one face of the resawn pieces being 10% and the other (resawn) face being 6% MC. See this diagram:

attachment.php


After resawing, the new, thinner boards spend some time stickered in Wally's garage. Because the shell of the original board had reached equilibrium with it's environment in Wally's garage, it's MC% is 10%. However, because the former core of the board is at 6%, it will gain moisture on that face in order to reach equlibrium with it's environment. In short, the resawn face gains 4 percentage points of moisture, while the opposite face remains the same. This causes the face to swell and cup the board. See this diagram:

attachment.php


QSWO will move approximately .0018 per inch per 1% moisture change, so in our example above one face of the resawn boards will expand by about 1/16" per inch of width, while the other face remains the same. This 1/16" per inch expansion causes the resawn pieces to cup.

Now in reality, based upon the average RH% in our part of the world lumber will typically equalize in the summer to around 12% - 14% MC. So that means that the amount of expansion on the former core of the board will be about 1/8" per inch on the resawn faces, causing noticeable cup.

Certain species that are porous (red oak, pine, mahogany, poplar, etc) will tend to equalize across the entire board over time, thus they are not as prone to cupping after resawing unless they have not fully equalized with their environment.

Now, if the board was not properly dried and the core had a MC% that was higher than the shell, the cupping would be in the opposite direction as the former core of the board lost MC% after resawing. This would cause the resawn boards to cup towards the center, instead of away from the center as the former core of the 5/4 board lost MC and shrunk while doing so..

For this reason, it is best NOT to sticker kiln dried lumber in a non-climate controlled shop after purchasing. Instead wrap the stack in plastic to retard the regain of MC%, and this will help to keep the boards not on the perimeter of the stack from regaining moisture. Even better yet, store the lumber in a humidity controlled location or in a high temp/low RH% location (such as an uninsulated attic).

Clear as mud?!

Scott
 

Attachments

  • resaw kerf cupping original board.jpg
    resaw kerf cupping original board.jpg
    25.3 KB · Views: 158
  • resaw kerf cupping original board.jpg
    resaw kerf cupping original board.jpg
    63.1 KB · Views: 239
  • pieces after resawing.jpg
    pieces after resawing.jpg
    53.5 KB · Views: 227
  • resawn pieces after acclimating.jpg
    resawn pieces after acclimating.jpg
    23.5 KB · Views: 225
Last edited:

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
Good Summary Scott.

My take away on this will be to continue using Air Dried stock and getting it close to the dimensions and then the wait. I have experienced cupping and surprises here and there .. I guess that's part of the wood business.

I use a fair amount of thick sugar maple in the gun stock work I do. Kiln dried stock just doesn't work as well as the slow air dried maple.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Premier Sponsor

Our Sponsors

LATEST FOR SALE LISTINGS

Top