Remote Start Issue for DC

Grimmy2016

Administrator
Scott
I have a 2HP DC unit which I added a larger Rikon fan to in order to create more suction. I am aware this causes more draw on startup - but not sure how much.

I currently have it running just fine on a dedicated 110v 20Amp Circuit.

I recently bought a Jet remote start kit that is supposed to handle 115v 20amp, BUT every time I use the remote to start it the whole thing trips and shuts off.

The only thing I was thinking is that the specs for the device says it only handles up to 1 3/4HP systems. Seems that with what I have already running on a smaller voltage and same amperage this should still work for me. So am I missing anything in my setup that would be causingthis device to possibly be overloaded?

 

bowman

Board of Directors, Webmaster
Neal
Staff member
Corporate Member
you may have to set the remote to control a relay, which controls the DC on the dedicated circuit. the 20A is too much startup load for the remote start
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Contact my brother at MK Electric, Home | MK Electric LLC
Sage advice.

Swapping impellors is not a brilliant idea. If just another inch would make it a bigger unit, don't you think they would have! No, the motor was selected for that impellor.

I don't know what is in that remote. Mine have a relay in them. I think the Grizzly I used had a circuit breaker too. You said "the whole thing shuts down. What does? Does it trip the panel breaker? Breaker in the remote? Thermal overload breaker on the motor? Or just does not turn on?

IMHO, 2 HP is too much for a 110 branch. 110, 115, 120, same difference. It depends on how far you are from a transformer.

By the best practice, you should be on a 30 A branch, not a 20. Minimum 10 gauge wire.
 

Grimmy2016

Administrator
Scott
Sage advice.

Swapping impellors is not a brilliant idea. If just another inch would make it a bigger unit, don't you think they would have! No, the motor was selected for that impellor.

I don't know what is in that remote. Mine have a relay in them. I think the Grizzly I used had a circuit breaker too. You said "the whole thing shuts down. What does? Does it trip the panel breaker? Breaker in the remote? Thermal overload breaker on the motor? Or just does not turn on?

IMHO, 2 HP is too much for a 110 branch. 110, 115, 120, same difference. It depends on how far you are from a transformer.

By the best practice, you should be on a 30 A branch, not a 20. Minimum 10 gauge wire.
THe unit is about 4 feet from circuit breaker. I could easy change the wire and to a 30A breaker as I have both here. I'll start with that experiment.

As for what shuts down, the Jet has a little button that pops out which ends up shutting down the power to the DC.

As for the bigger impellor, it does increase the suction capability enough that it made a difference across the shop. There are a lot of YT videos demonstrating the difference between the HF impellor and the Rikon on the same motor.
 

Bas

Recovering tool addict
Bas
Corporate Member
My guess it's the remote kit. I used to have one that was rated for 14A (Christmas lights?), it could not handle a dust collector. Switched to a different kit rated for 20A, and the problem went away. The problem is the startup current. At full load the Harbor Freight unit I had ("2HP") would only draw about 12A, but the startup current was considerably more than 20A. Not long enough to trip the breaker, but too much for the remote.

Does the problem happen when the air intake is closed? This should reduce the load a bit.
 

bobby g

Bob
Corporate Member
I totally agree with Bas based on my experience. Is the remote unit still returnable? I'm pretty sure that this one will do the job. About $130.00
PSI Woodworking Products LR2244 Long Ranger, For Dust Collectors, 220v/440V Heavy Duty Pro Remote Motor Starter Switch

Bob
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
That little button is the internal overload breaker on the motor. It means it is pulling too much current for too long. My guess is the remote kit drops the voltage just enough that it is taking too long for the oversize impellor to get to speed. While it is just starting, the second winding is in the circuit greatly increasing draw long enough to trip the internal breaker. Give Bas's idea try. Not a fix, but maybe a band aid. Those internal motor breakers get fatigued pretty quickly, so you may have damaged it. They are just a bi-metallic switch. If the motor can be wired for 220 and put on a 30A 220 branch, then you can get a big enough remote (I have a Grizzly I am not using) but cheap motors may not be able to be converted.

People jump out of perfectly good airplanes too. Many do just fine. I know two who did not. ( One splat, another in a wheel chair) I don't care how many YT videos out there you may find. I bet none were done by an electrical engineer who knows what they are doing or even a well informed "maker" who understands motors.

I see the WEB is full of $20 to $90 remote controls they claim are rated @ 30A. Looking inside one, they are not. For that kind of a switching load, you need an "industrial" relay rated around 60A, 600V based on the data sheet from reputable relay manufacturers. I am not a real engineer either, but degreed in electronics and worked in failure analysis for many years, so know what questions require an engineer.

FWIW, my solution to my 1 3/4 Jet not pulling enough was a 5 HP ClearView. Probably overkill, but man does it work. The 3 HP Oneida might have been a better match, but it was out of stock. Both have much taller cones than the more common brands so the cyclone works much better. My advice is to scrap what you have and buy a "real" collector with cyclone and HEPA filter, or all you have is a chip collector and fines ( the deadly stuff) powered dust atomizer. Yes, not cheap, but neither is a new pair of lungs. I am sure I have done myself damage in the years I did not understand this, both in woodworking and working on old cars. If I seem a little harsh, it is because I am suggesting you don't make the same mistakes as I have.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
I totally agree with Bas based on my experience. Is the remote unit still returnable? I'm pretty sure that this one will do the job. About $130.00
PSI Woodworking Products LR2244 Long Ranger, For Dust Collectors, 220v/440V Heavy Duty Pro Remote Motor Starter Switch

Bob
He is running 110V, not 220. Their advertised 110 V remote says 1 to 5 HP, but 16A max. Clearly the 1 HP rating is correct. Might just report that to Amazon as fraud.
 

Grimmy2016

Administrator
Scott
That little button is the internal overload breaker on the motor. It means it is pulling too much current for too long. My guess is the remote kit drops the voltage just enough that it is taking too long for the oversize impellor to get to speed. While it is just starting, the second winding is in the circuit greatly increasing draw long enough to trip the internal breaker. Give Bas's idea try. Not a fix, but maybe a band aid. Those internal motor breakers get fatigued pretty quickly, so you may have damaged it. They are just a bi-metallic switch. If the motor can be wired for 220 and put on a 30A 220 branch, then you can get a big enough remote (I have a Grizzly I am not using) but cheap motors may not be able to be converted.

People jump out of perfectly good airplanes too. Many do just fine. I know two who did not. ( One splat, another in a wheel chair) I don't care how many YT videos out there you may find. I bet none were done by an electrical engineer who knows what they are doing or even a well informed "maker" who understands motors.

I see the WEB is full of $20 to $90 remote controls they claim are rated @ 30A. Looking inside one, they are not. For that kind of a switching load, you need an "industrial" relay rated around 60A, 600V based on the data sheet from reputable relay manufacturers. I am not a real engineer either, but degreed in electronics and worked in failure analysis for many years, so know what questions require an engineer.

FWIW, my solution to my 1 3/4 Jet not pulling enough was a 5 HP ClearView. Probably overkill, but man does it work. The 3 HP Oneida might have been a better match, but it was out of stock. Both have much taller cones than the more common brands so the cyclone works much better. My advice is to scrap what you have and buy a "real" collector with cyclone and HEPA filter, or all you have is a chip collector and fines ( the deadly stuff) powered dust atomizer. Yes, not cheap, but neither is a new pair of lungs. I am sure I have done myself damage in the years I did not understand this, both in woodworking and working on old cars. If I seem a little harsh, it is because I am suggesting you don't make the same mistakes as I have.
Thanks Scott. I do have a Oneida Super Dust Deputy 5" cyclone and Wynn HEPA filter on my DC as well.

I did try the 10 gauge/30amp breaker last night, but as you stated, the limitation continues to be the remote switch. :-( It wouldnt take but a moment to rewire the outlet for 220v but I am not sure on if the HF motor can we switch. I'll keep at it and thanks for the suggestion.
 

McRabbet

Rob
Corporate Member
Here is a schematic diagram I put together to illustrate the Wireless Remote Control of mine that Neal Bowman referenced in Post #4 above. I reference an inexpensive wireless Remote Outlet available on Amazon for under $15 and a Packard 2-Pole Contactor with 30 Amp capacity and a 120 Volt coil for under $10. The Packard contactor can be used to switch either the two hot leads for 240 Volts (L1 and L2), or a higher amperage 120 Volt line by connecting the Black and White leads to L1 and L2. In either case, the ground wire must be passed to the cyclone motor.
 

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sawman101

Bruce Swanson
Corporate Member
I know that theoretically this just ain't kosher, but my Jet remote switch failed less than a year after putting it to use on my HF 2 h.p. DC, so for a temporary fix I bought a less than $10 Christmas light remote at Lowes and put in service--it's still doing the job! I've not studied the motor on the HF DC, but I was thinking it would be nice to switch to a 220v circuit, but I don't believe that motor is wound for it. So I tried the best, and it failed, I tried the least and it's still working quite well, and this is after 2 years of service.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Here is a schematic diagram I put together to illustrate the Wireless Remote Control of mine that Neal Bowman referenced in Post #4 above. I reference an inexpensive wireless Remote Outlet available on Amazon for under $15 and a Packard 2-Pole Contactor with 30 Amp capacity and a 120 Volt coil for under $10. The Packard contactor can be used to switch either the two hot leads for 240 Volts (L1 and L2), or a higher amperage 120 Volt line by connecting the Black and White leads to L1 and L2. In either case, the ground wire must be passed to the cyclone motor.

Correct kind of relay, but I would want a bigger one for a 2 HP motor. At least 40A, preferably 60. One wants it to last more than a week. Using the contacts in parallel does not work as the problem is with initial closure and no two close at the same rate. It does lower the running resistance across the contacts though.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
I know that theoretically this just ain't kosher, but my Jet remote switch failed less than a year after putting it to use on my HF 2 h.p. DC, so for a temporary fix I bought a less than $10 Christmas light remote at Lowes and put in service--it's still doing the job! I've not studied the motor on the HF DC, but I was thinking it would be nice to switch to a 220v circuit, but I don't believe that motor is wound for it. So I tried the best, and it failed, I tried the least and it's still working quite well, and this is after 2 years of service.
But your motor does not have a over-weight incorrectly designed load on it I suspect. I believe the root of the problem is still the wrong impellor.
 

McRabbet

Rob
Corporate Member
Correct kind of relay, but I would want a bigger one for a 2 HP motor. At least 40A, preferably 60. One wants it to last more than a week. Using the contacts in parallel does not work as the problem is with initial closure and no two close at the same rate. It does lower the running resistance across the contacts though.
One can use a Packard C240B rated at 40 amps -- I have a 30 Amp C230B for the 240 VAC/5 HP Leeson motor on my ClearVue cyclone and it has never failed. The motor has a 21.5 Full Load Amp rating.
 

Pop Golden

New User
Pop
My "Long Ranger 115 VAC" works just fine on my HF DC. This DC is rated at 15 AMPS @ 115 VAC. That's according to HF's engineers so I think it's correct. The bottom line here is the HF DC is most likely NOT 2 hp. It's very difficult to get 2 hp. out of 15 amps. I don't know if the larger impellor is putting that much additional load on the motor. If it fits in the HF housing it can't be that much larger. Is it made of heaver material? I find that my HF impellor works well why change it? AS a foot note I have a Super Dust Deputy up line from my DC. Not much dust escapes the Dust Deputy. For the fine stuff I will put in a Stratus dust cleaner. After looking over celling hung cleaners I think the Stratus has a better answer.

Pop
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
One can use a Packard C240B rated at 40 amps -- I have a 30 Amp C230B for the 240 VAC/5 HP Leeson motor on my ClearVue cyclone and it has never failed. The motor has a 21.5 Full Load Amp rating.
Full load rating is way short of start up. Just saying. Again folks, what the motor is rated at under design load is way different from what happens on start up. So saying a 15A motor pulls 15A is totally misleading. It is far more complicated than that. What time and current causes the internal breaker to trip is equally complicated.

Going back, it is the motors overload that is triggering, so that means too much current for too long on start-up. This is as one would expect if a heavier than design wheel is attached.

I use whatever relay came with my CV. A Leeson is a quality motor. We do not know what motor the OP has but most are similar with biggest differences in gearings and cooling. Yes, a reasonably good motor will be about 90% efficient and under load, you hope to be with a Power Factor around .9 or better, and that is over 16A. On start up, the motor being way behind phase so the PF is more like .6, it is over 25A. Dip the voltage, and it goes even more. I do not know what PF yo get with the start winding in place. As I suggest, it is actually quite complicated and it takes real engineers to figure it out.

I do not assume HF has real engineers. They buy spec from some OEM. How competent the design staff of the OEM is is unknown to us and probably to HF as well. Again, I emphasize, if the performance of a given DC can be improved that much by a larger impellor, the OEM would have done so. They would not give up specs that easy. And yes, even 1/2 inch diameter makes a big difference as that is where all the leverage is and where the inertia is.

I use an old furnace blower in a box for my ceiling ambient filter. After moving up to the CV, the MERV 15 filters don't pick up much at all. Neither do the MERV 15 filters in front of my mini-split.
 

Hmerkle

Board of Directors, Development Director
Hank
Staff member
Corporate Member
Here is a schematic diagram I put together to illustrate the Wireless Remote Control of mine that Neal Bowman referenced in Post #4 above. I reference an inexpensive wireless Remote Outlet available on Amazon for under $15 and a Packard 2-Pole Contactor with 30 Amp capacity and a 120 Volt coil for under $10. The Packard contactor can be used to switch either the two hot leads for 240 Volts (L1 and L2), or a higher amperage 120 Volt line by connecting the Black and White leads to L1 and L2. In either case, the ground wire must be passed to the cyclone motor.
Rob,
That Coil would work at a lower amperage too, right?
I have had trouble with Bruce's solution - (just using the remote controller on a 20 amp circuit) I burned up the receiver...

if so, a CHEAP solution (~$25) for a remote start!
 

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