Religous Avatars Question

[Douglas Robinson]

I do not want to create a problem where there is none, but would a religous avatar violate our policies? I do not have a problem with it, but thought that I would bring it up so that we could be prepared in the future.

Doug

 

[ScottM]

Here is my 2cents.... I have no issue with a Star of David, a Cross or other symbol, or even a place of worship. Especially if the picture highlights wood working. Where I would draw the line is if the picture contains a saying that might offend someone with different beliefs.

 

[TracyP]

I agree with Scott. I remember having a discussion about religious signatures with Steve after a member posted a very "specific" religious signature. In that conversation Steve's direction was to not allow "religion specific" signatures or avatars. The one we were talking about was a signature that stated he was a "Devout Christian".
HTH

 

[Bas]

Our site policy bans any kind of religion content unless it's something generic like "God bless you", "You are in my prayers" etc. As a guideline, I'd say religious avatars are out unless they are somehow woodworking related. Yes, that means it's a judgment call by the staff. But there is some terrific woodworking out there that has religious connections, and banning that would be a loss to the site.

A picture of a Cross, Star of David, Buddha, Crescent Moon etc. serves no purpose other than to express a religious opinion. Such an opinion has no place here on NCWW - this is a woodworking site, not a theological gathering place. It's not whether the opinion is reasonable or something we agree or disagree with. It's simply not appropriate

With our exploding user base, this is something to watch.

 

[DaveO]

The whole subject of Religious content in avatars and threads really is a touchy subject. Much greater than Politics. This is the "bible-belt" and many have very strong religious convictions that are a integral part of their lives, and part of who they are. I think that the subject of religion has to be taken on a case by case basis. For example there was a lot of postings in JimD's thread about his wife's stroke and passing that should have been edited or deleted as they crossed the line. In light of his situation and that he was coming to this group for comfort and support in a great time of need, I and many of y'all left them be, and I think that was a good decision.
Personally I just wish folks would get the hint right off the bat and leave religion off this site, so that we wouldn't have such a hard job to do determining was is OK and what's not. We could be complete Draconian and exclude all things like "pray for me" but those things are what makes this a community and should be allowed. As long as they are allowed we will have to define our religious tolerances constantly and on a case by case basis.

Great topic for a Sunday morning :gar-La;:gar-La;


Dave

 

[sapwood]

This is a sticky issue.
In the past, photos of woodworking projects that include religious symbols and/or crafted text have generally been accepted. Religious avatars have not. But it's always possible that an exception pops up. If that occurs, it should be resolved case by case.

And not to muddy the waters :confused_
Sometimes in threads regarding family illness, death, etc., members occasionally push the limits of policy. Despite my strong support of our policy, generally I think it's best to let them go.

These are my opinions, please feel free to have your own :mrgreen:
Roger

Heehee. Dave, I started my post before you . . .but you type faster. Ironic that we touch some of the same thoughts independently.

 

[Bas]

For example there was a lot of postings in JimD's thread about his wife's stroke and passing that should have been edited or deleted as they crossed the line. In light of his situation and that he was coming to this group for comfort and support in a great time of need, I and many of y'all left them be, and I think that was a good decision.

That was absolutely the right decision. But, those posts had a specific purpose, as you put it for "comfort and support". It was all about JimD. It was not about a member making a statement via his or her signature/ avatar.

We could be complete Draconian and exclude all things like "pray for me" but those things are what makes this a community and should be allowed.

Agreed. Tolerance is a two-way street. Again, these sort of statements are made in response to a specific situation, not someone broadcasting/ promoting his or her beliefs. I think that the warmth and compassion in our community is what makes this place special. If people have to start weighing their words ("am I allowed to say this?") for ordinary day-to-day things, we're heading in the wrong direction.

As long as they are allowed we will have to define our religious tolerances constantly and on a case by case basis.

Yup. That's why they pay us the big bucks. We get to wrestle with it and still get beat up over it all the time. And then we get back to woodworking.

 

[SteveColes]

I'm sorry, religious avatars MUST not be tolerated. period. We have had several people threaten to quit over this issue. What do you tell them. It's Ok for this person, because he attached a picture of a saw to his bleeding heart cross.:no::nah:

I don't think JimD's thread crossed the line. In the policy there are specific exceptions for prayers etc. I'm going to read the thread againjust to see if there are statements that I think crossed the line.

Please understand that IMHO, that every time you decide to make a case by case exception, you giving ammunition to those that think the policy should be changed. Inconsistent enforcement is always the way to start an effective challenge to a rule.

 

[gator]

Where does it end? I'm sure that someone, somewhere can find offense at any or many of the avatars out there.

some on the site now:
a bowhunter with the kill: offensive to anti-hunters?
two guys cartoon with a 3-stooges like action of one poking the eyes out of the other
any commercial logo: are we endorsing the product or service?
any college logo or symbol: any hot rivalries out there?
a motorcycle burning rubber: do we condone unsafe driving?
a "vote 4 Pedro" button: what do the latinos think of this one?
even to the point of this thread: an image of what appears to be Jesus
even my own avatar: many people think the Masons are satanic.

I ask again where does it end, do we take an 'offensive poll' on each avatar and have it approved unanimously before it can go on the site?

People are diverse and within reason (you know, the old you can't yell fire in a crowded theater) we should allow such diversity on the site without members becoming paranoid.

George

 

[SteveColes]

George, our religious policy is not an issue of offense, but rather prevention. Religious content will lead to conflict. So how do we prevent this. By having a strong policy whose only exceptions are those that are written clearly.

Also, you mentioned a Vote for Pedro button. If that is anywhere on this site it should be deleted immediately,

Finally, is Doug's question curiosity or is it based on something I haven't seen?

 

[gator]

Also, you mentioned a Vote for Pedro button. If that is anywhere on this site it should be deleted immediately,

The avatar for 'challenger'

George

 

[McRabbet]

I agree that Challenger's avatar is inappropriate and he should be asked to remove it. On Steve's birthday this year, I sent a PM to Jeff... to remove an avatar that he had returned after it had been removed back when he first joined because it was clearly a religious symbol (a cross with a beating heart). He complied and I never made a big deal about it. George, I do not see your avatar as a religious symbol nor do I take exception to the many college logos we have nor the few corporate images on members like Charles M. I think the [apparent] image of Jesus should be removed as a violation of our policy if viewers think it portrays Jesus. To be honest, I'm not sure I've seen it.

 

[TracyP]

I deleted the avatar, only because his last activity was 12/9/2008 and if we pm'ed him to change it it may take a while, I will send him a pm explaining my action.

 

[sapwood]

Please understand that IMHO, that every time you decide to make a case by case exception, you giving ammunition to those that think the policy should be changed. Inconsistent enforcement is always the way to start an effective challenge to a rule.

Steve,
I certainly agree about consistency of policy application. However, some cases occur that aren't black and white . . . rather shades of gray. In those instances, discussion in the Mods/Admin forum seems appropriate.

My $.002,
Roger

BTW, Vote for Pedro clearly needs to go. I'll delete it if someone hasn't already and send a PM.

Roger

 

[Douglas Robinson]

Steve:

I think George refernced the avator that got me thinking, an image of Jesus. BTW Vote for Pedro is a reference to the Movie Napoleon Dynamite. Pedro was Napoleon's best friend and ran for class president. It had no ethnic overtones.

Doug

 

[SteveColes]

I deleted tinman's avatar becuase it was clearly a classic portrait of jesus and I went to delete challeger' but it had already been dob. Tracy, in these type of cases, I think we just delete and then send the pm.

I saw the avatar where a cross has been inlaid in a pen. If this is what people were referring to when they talk about things being woodworking related. When I look at that, I see a peice of woodworking that just happens to have a religious symbol embedded in it. But of course, if jeff... or wood buther did something like that I would feel pretty sure that they were just trying to get around the policy and/or testing our resolve.

 

[sapwood]

You are quick, Tracy :icon_thum

I will through the member list to check for anomalies.

Roger

 

[sapwood]

After a quick review of all 2,287 members I only saw a couple that someone might question. A few were symbols that leave me clueless :dontknow:

Flyingspider is the guy with the hunter's outfit and a bow and arrow (George's reference?)
Ranger Dailey is in military uniform with gun and ammo (I think)
Mark avatar is a wooden gun
Workoutchick has a cartoonish bikini.

The only one I might have a problem with is FlyFisherBob?

Roger

 

[TracyP]

I also did a thorough sweep of the avatars and basically had the same findings as you Roger.

 

[SteveColes]

To Tinman:

Ken, let me apologize. I have had to delete your avatar. It is in violation of our policies to use avatars that are religious in nature.

I am not sure why one of the staff has not done this sooner.

Please understand that this is not done in disrespect of you beliefs. But rather as part of out attempt to being proactive in maintaining the harmony of our site.

Our policy statement will better describe our intent

I hope you will understand.

Steve Coles

From tinman

Dear Mr Coles,
Please understand that I am offended by your policies and would appreciate it if you would remove me and all information I have previously provided to this site.

Sincerely,
Ken McGinnis