All my precision squares are either Starrett’s or old Lufkin’s (when they made Starrett type machinist type measuring tools before they were absorbed by a multinational corp). I inherited a number of my measuring tools from my dad and bought a some over the years. My large protractor is Starrett and all my dial indicators are also Starrett. I do have a large TSO triangle that works on my MFT bench. It’s also very precise.
Precision Square For Tool Setup
- Thread starter Warped Woodwerks
- Start date
Wiley...
I bought some 3-2-1's awhile back, since the reviews were great, but I did find them to be off by a hair. Could I have lived with it? Maybe, but to me, that would just be accepting poor craftmanship\inferior products, so I returned them.
Your suggestion of using a digital angle finder might do the trick. I (obviously - haha.. more layout tools, you don't say), or, at least.. help me to get my squares a little\lot closer to square. I'll have to try that a little later
Even the recommendations, from everyone.. with regards to the drafting triangle... might be of great benefit, too.. and I wouldn't mind spending $10 - $20.
And thanks Hank... I'll look into those calibration sites\companies and see tolerances can be had.
I'd hate to junk all of my squares, since that would be like buying that 12" Starrett Master Square.. and throwing it right in the trash.
I wasn't pushing a 12" actually, just used that as a common reference for comparison. I'd probably buy a 6 or 8 inch, since that's the largest I'd need to align my stationary tools.
Within that range, if you trust Kinex's specs, their 6" square is nearly as good as Starrett's toolmakers square (0.00031" vs 0.0002") for $22 instead of $180. For me, if Kinex's number is legit, that would probably be good enough to align any tool I have so I'd be inclined to go with them. With Starrett you're buying a lot of credibility, but $180 is pretty steep for a square (and I'm cheap).
Within that range, if you trust Kinex's specs, their 6" square is nearly as good as Starrett's toolmakers square (0.00031" vs 0.0002") for $22 instead of $180. For me, if Kinex's number is legit, that would probably be good enough to align any tool I have so I'd be inclined to go with them. With Starrett you're buying a lot of credibility, but $180 is pretty steep for a square (and I'm cheap
).
I think he is planning to use this as a tool set-up tool...
That tool needs to be more accurate than a tool used for simply "marking out"
The funny thing is if I want to achieve 0.001 over 12 inches, I need 4X that in accuracy... meaning my gauge should be accurate to 0.00025. At that accuracy level a measurement taken in the morning, will shift with any temperature change....
So while I think I know Rory (@ConwayCustoms) how you plan to use the tool, I am also agreeing with Richard, get a "reasonably square" square and
1. Use it as your master square.
2. Use it to compare or reset your other squares to.
2. Baby it (keep it in a drawer in a nested box or Kaizen foam.
Oh and when you "throw-away" all your squares, let me know - I'll be RIGHT over!
Allan, I don't have that TSO (18"?) triangle, but I was thinking about buying that, since I do have 1 of their track saw guide rails.. They do make very nice tools and are precise.
I'll probably just end up buying a Starrett square and call it a day.
If you do buy a new one - there should be a calibration document with it.
Richard has a point, chasing precision in a moving target with handheld tools is an exercise in futility. On the other hand I was never able to do this joinery until I got my Starrett vernier angle gage. This is not one piece of wood, it is the intersection of six mitered cuts made on a 30 year old Delta table saw. A saw that some would say is not good enough to rough cut 2x4s.
Richard brings up an important point. "A man with a watch knows what time it is; a man with two watches is never sure."
There are hard physical limitations, due to the optics of the eye, of what size objects are resolvable. The hard limit is due to the rayleigh criterion, but actual vision is worse than the theoretical maximum. The smallest object an adult can resolve is a speck around 0.0011". Here's a brief explanation.
The extra accuracy you're obtaining with getting a toolmaker's square, good to 0.0001" over six inches, versus one that is good to 0.009" is literally invisible. You would not be able to perceive the difference in accuracy when using them to set up your tools. I don't even know if they make 0.0001" feeler gauges. And you're never going to get a woodworking machine to hold a tolerance less than 0.001" for any useful length of time.
Wood is imperfect, but it is forgiving. Use the latter to compensate for the former, and make some sawdust!
There are hard physical limitations, due to the optics of the eye, of what size objects are resolvable. The hard limit is due to the rayleigh criterion, but actual vision is worse than the theoretical maximum. The smallest object an adult can resolve is a speck around 0.0011". Here's a brief explanation.
The extra accuracy you're obtaining with getting a toolmaker's square, good to 0.0001" over six inches, versus one that is good to 0.009" is literally invisible. You would not be able to perceive the difference in accuracy when using them to set up your tools. I don't even know if they make 0.0001" feeler gauges. And you're never going to get a woodworking machine to hold a tolerance less than 0.001" for any useful length of time.
Wood is imperfect, but it is forgiving. Use the latter to compensate for the former, and make some sawdust!
Scott,I wasn't pushing a 12" actually, just used that as a common reference for comparison. I'd probably buy a 6 or 8 inch, since that's the largest I'd need to align my stationary tools.
Within that range, if you trust Kinex's specs, their 6" square is nearly as good as Starrett's toolmakers square (0.00031" vs 0.0002") for $22 instead of $180. For me, if Kinex's number is legit, that would probably be good enough to align any tool I have so I'd be inclined to go with them. With Starrett you're buying a lot of credibility, but $180 is pretty steep for a square (and I'm cheap
I know you weren't pushing that 12" Starrett.. it is all good. Since Starrett is known for their "extreme" accuracy.. and credibility.. to me.. it might be worth buying their 6" (don't think I see any 8"), since I would trust that square a lot more than my Kinex (currently).. then testing my $20-something Kinex against that Starrett... keeping the Kinex and buying another, possibly a larger square of their (if the Kinex is "right on the money" against that Starrett), then aligning my 3 Bridge City squares.. then if that is all good... I'll be in a happy place.
So many what-ifs...
Richard,
1st thing I am trying to do is setup my tools for "perfect" alignment. I can't make accurate cuts & joints (or pretty close to accurate cuts) with poorly aligned tables\blades, tools. Sure, I might be able to make "good enough" cuts\joints, but as you mentioned earlier.. unfortunately.. I am an over obsessor :\ over analyzer, too. True, wood moves like crazy, and I am ok\accepting of that.
2nd thing would be marking layout lines on my pieces of wood. I am currently working on a project that requires decent accuracy, but once I throw 1 of my Bridge City squares (or the PEC\Kinex) on the wood and draw a line down it for my cut (has to be a 9" channel in length), both lines (about 2" apart) taper apart\closer and are no longer 2" in parallel. I have to make 18 cuts that have 2" parallel gaps spaced every 4-1/4" in a 40" long board, and if the 1st 2" channel is off by (let's say) a 1/16th - 1/32th.. when I get down to the end of that 40" board.. that last 2" channel with be off by a lot and will turn that project into trash. I hope I am describing this project ok, so you can get a proper mental picture of it?
Was looking to see if Starrett offered that calibration document with their squares.
When looking around, on the website for that 6" square, I came across this for their Toolmaker square, not their Master Precision Square:
Made in America: No
Where are these things made? China?
Starrett's Master Precision Square is made in the USA.. interesting.
These are made in the USA, but not sure about their accuracy\precision... Another contender?
I apologize, for adding another square to the mix, but I am trying to narrow things down to 1 square... and I am getting close.
Thanks again for everyone's insight\help\opinions\etc... oh, and putting up with me over obsessing this.
OK I was a machinist for 15 years, used Starett, Brown and Sharpe, for all that time, they are the best of the best HOWEVER we are working with wood, it will move right after you cut it! Nothing you or i can do about it, you have to take this deviation up with God. That said, I have woodworker 6" triangle within .001, i USE 6 inch adjustable squares from Empire, BLUE VIAL ONLY, they are within .001, have checked them against Woodpeckers and they are dead on. Go to Depot you will find them hanging on the board and buy one, less then 15 dollars, i would suggest 2 get a 12 while you are at it.
I'll grab a Starrett.. Probably the Non USA made Toolmakers Square, since that is half the price of the USA made Master Precision square.
I just want to align all of my squares to the same square.. Starrett, since then I'll know all of my squares are the same angle, vs 1 being 89.95, and then other being 90.02 degrees, etc. This way, I won't 2nd guess myself and say.. "is this square more accurate than the other square I have?" If that makes sense.
Also, I have a USA made PEC 4" & PEC 6" adjustable\double square.. which both aren't 90 degrees.. so maybe I can pass on that Empire square you mentioned, or would it be worth checking that Empire out, too? I guess I can always take my 2 PEC double squares to HD and check them against that Empire.
And I truly understand that wood is natural and has movement.. I just need to get over the "perfection" part and accept it. It is just challenging, especially when companies market their products as "precision" or "accurate," even though they aren't (all of the time).
Good afternoon Rory,
Take a look at Taylor Tools blemished tools ... accuracy is very good ... but the tools don't meet the OEM's appearance standards, and usually have the OEM mark deleted. Here's one link you can view:
The specs call out "These handy double squares are indispensable for setting up machinery and for performing a host of shop layout tasks. They are manufactured in accordance with EEC Class 1 accuracy standards and are guaranteed to be square to within 0.002 (two thousandths of an inch) over the length of each blade."
At 29.95 for a 6" double square, I don't think you can go wrong.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Rick
Take a look at Taylor Tools blemished tools ... accuracy is very good ... but the tools don't meet the OEM's appearance standards, and usually have the OEM mark deleted. Here's one link you can view:
The specs call out "These handy double squares are indispensable for setting up machinery and for performing a host of shop layout tasks. They are manufactured in accordance with EEC Class 1 accuracy standards and are guaranteed to be square to within 0.002 (two thousandths of an inch) over the length of each blade."
At 29.95 for a 6" double square, I don't think you can go wrong.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Rick
I want the machine accuracy for machine setup, and for truing/setting up working tools. Yea, wood moves, but it amazing how tiny a error in a 3 or 4 inch wide miter makes a big difference. I tuned my shooting boards and sleds for results, not to a gauge. My vintage try I just got is fine for layout and my igauge combo and PRC ( blemish) double T are all fine. They have steel heads so will hold up. I drag out the Kinex for initial machine setup only of I get stupid and drop one of my layout tools. I use a little bow-tie for dovetail layout.
I have one of these. Very true, but have not got used to use it
If you shop around, you can find them in imperial measures. I keep thinking I should force my conversion to metric, but imperial is so ingrained. I can deal with mm and cm, but so used to "thou".
I also have an Incra tiny T. True, but again, I don't seem to reach for it.
I was going to get one of these, and maybe their 45, but just don't like the feel of an all metal try. So I got a vintage wood/steel one. If B-C still made their first rosewood ones, I might pay the price.
PS: It is one thing to lay out a prefect line, it is another to cut to it.
PPS: Still, the ranting on where something is made. Sure, I like to support domestic companies, but I buy quality. Source is second. China, India, etc. can make the very finest quality if you pay for it, or total junk. So can N.A. manufactures.
PPPS: My Swanson 6 inch speed square is as true as the Kinex. $10. Even if dropped. Empire and Milwaukee are not. At least if you grab several and put them back to back of a surface in the store, they seem to vary.
I have one of these. Very true, but have not got used to use it
If you shop around, you can find them in imperial measures. I keep thinking I should force my conversion to metric, but imperial is so ingrained. I can deal with mm and cm, but so used to "thou".
I also have an Incra tiny T. True, but again, I don't seem to reach for it.
I was going to get one of these, and maybe their 45, but just don't like the feel of an all metal try. So I got a vintage wood/steel one. If B-C still made their first rosewood ones, I might pay the price.
PS: It is one thing to lay out a prefect line, it is another to cut to it.
PPS: Still, the ranting on where something is made. Sure, I like to support domestic companies, but I buy quality. Source is second. China, India, etc. can make the very finest quality if you pay for it, or total junk. So can N.A. manufactures.
PPPS: My Swanson 6 inch speed square is as true as the Kinex. $10. Even if dropped. Empire and Milwaukee are not. At least if you grab several and put them back to back of a surface in the store, they seem to vary.
How about:
Anytime Tools Angle Block Set 30-60-90 & 45-45-90 Precision +/- 20 Seconds, Machinist Tool, 2 Piece Set: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
Anytime Tools Angle Block Set 30-60-90 & 45-45-90 Precision +/- 20 Seconds, Machinist Tool, 2 Piece Set: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
www.amazon.com
I bought the TSO MTR-18 a couple years ago to work with my MTF bench. It’s a very good large triangle and protractor on its own but it really shines on the MFT bench where you can plug it in two guide your stock and cut with the track on the dogs. I was cutting some white oak stair skirt boards the other day with it on my MFT and my Makita track saw. It’s fast and accurately repeatable. I also use their parallel guides and track squares. It’s not cheap stuff but very well thought out and manufactured. Woodpecker is also very good and innovative stuff.
So... I reached out to Starrett and asked about the Toolmaker SS square.. where it is made, accuracy, etc.
They replied and stated that the Toolmaker version is Made in China. I wasn't thrilled to hear about that... BUT, as long as it is exactly 90 degrees, and the fit and finish is superb...
Here is the document they sent me.. which is interesting and very thorough.
The Blue Spruce Tool Works square is made in the USA, but not sure of their testing, accuracy, etc., when compared to the Starrett. Any idea on their testing, accuracy, etc.? Can't seem to find that info for their squares.
My gut is telling me Master Precision Square (6" USA Made), but my wallet is saying Toolmaker SS Square.
Save up and get the USA Master Precision Square (about $370+), so I can use that to reference my other squares to it, or save 50% and just get the Toolmaker version?
Thanks again.
They replied and stated that the Toolmaker version is Made in China. I wasn't thrilled to hear about that... BUT, as long as it is exactly 90 degrees, and the fit and finish is superb...
Here is the document they sent me.. which is interesting and very thorough.
The Blue Spruce Tool Works square is made in the USA, but not sure of their testing, accuracy, etc., when compared to the Starrett. Any idea on their testing, accuracy, etc.? Can't seem to find that info for their squares.
My gut is telling me Master Precision Square (6" USA Made), but my wallet is saying Toolmaker SS Square.
Save up and get the USA Master Precision Square (about $370+), so I can use that to reference my other squares to it, or save 50% and just get the Toolmaker version?
Thanks again.
While the toolmaker is half the precision of the Master it is still 5-10 times better than the others and for the price probably sufficient for your needs. I don't think you will be disappointed. Maybe ten years down the road you will look back and think 'What a bargain that would have been" but you will have ten years of accurate use and $200 invested in some other tool that you need.
That's their calibration procedure. It does provide a lot of insight as to how they actually test it.
The Bruce tool works square doesn't provide any spec and says it's adjustable - in fact they provide a method, so IMO, they're guaranteeing nothing. It's up to you to make it accurate using other equipment as a reference.
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