Power VS Hand

[DavidF]

Re: Dovetail Jig

Interesting thread; are you all doing so many DT's that you need a jig? and can justify the huge cost. It may be just my projects, but my DT needs are actually very small and if I need them I will hand cut them. I suppose if one received a commission for a whole kitchen with DT drawers that would justify the cost, but for one box or similar is it really worth it?

As for routers; here I show my British reluctance to spend money!! I have an old Freud 2000 as a permanent "in table" router, only bad thing is not variable speed, but 2 hp has always been enough. My only other is an old 500W (3/4) hp Hitachi that does EVERYTHING else - a work horse in the true sense. Because routers generally spell danger to most projects I take small cuts and just take more time. I can use it one handed or two use with a base or not and I don't have all that weight trying to work against me. As this one finally wears out bearings etc, I will probably get a DW, but the minimum HP; because of dust collection really. In fact the new Bosch caught my eye and even that's 1 hp. Do we really need 2 and 3 hp in a free hand application? Surely an 1/8 cut is asking for trouble anyway.

Similarly on planers and jointers do we really need to take great gobs of wood off in one go - is time really that short?

This could be an interesting thread - I would like to know what drives manufacturers of essentially Semi-pro or hobby tools to offer ever bigger and powerful tools.

 

[chris99z71]

Re: Dovetail Jig

DavidF,
That's an interesting perspective about the dovetail jig. I must have some British blood in me as well, because I share your reluctance for spending money! I do, however, see why someone would spend $137 on a dovetailing jig that seems to do just about everything and has pretty good reviews. Albeit they would surely be more versatile, I can't imagine that a good set of the appropriate saws for hand cutting dovetails would cost substantially less.
I'm in complete agreement with you on the router size issue. Even with my limited experience, I've seen that shallower passes are the key to pretty results, thus bypassing the need for all that extra horsepower. If I was routinely doing 2" deep rabbets in hard maple in a single pass, I could see the need for a 3HP model, but until then...

 

[SteveColes]

Re: Dovetail Jig

Well, here's my perspective as a relative newcomer to woodworking. Right now, if I had to cut my dovetails by hand, it wouldn't be a matter of an extra hour or two, it would be a matter of days. And even then, They wouldn't be very good. Yes, maybe if I practice everyday for month, I could do them acceptably in a reasonable amount of time. But in the meantime, I have several projects that I need to get done. The dovetail jig gives me an option of quick, reasonable and repeatable results. So right now that jig lets me do things that I don't yet have the skill to do on my own.:lol: For me, that's a good thing.

 

[DavidF]

Re: Dovetail Jig

But, and I hope nobody takes offense; if a jig is always used, however small the number of DT's then the skill level is never going to go up and the general skill with hand tools is not going to get any better. I agree totally that if I had 6 or more drawers to do then I would be heading for the router. The same applies to M&T's if we only ever cut them with a router/TS then we will never know the joy of making a joint by hand. I know that we must move on and believe me I use PT's all the time, but the skills learnt in making a joint by hand, even if un-necessary, will stand that person in good stead when the time comes when a PT is not an option. I sometimes fear when I see a person just starting woodwork who is intent on collecting all the power tools they feel are absolutely necessary to build a project, that they will never develop those finer skills that make the craftsmen and Women we all admire.

 

[chris99z71]

Re: Dovetail Jig

DavidF,
That's a wonderful philosophy!
I think that as the number of people who have those skills dwindles, the availability of such skilled teachers dwindles as well. I'd love to have someone to teach me more of the "finer skills" as you put it, but so far, I've not had that opportunity. Yes, I could try learning from books but IMHO, there's no substitute for a flesh and blood teacher.
For me, I feel like the learning time is a bit shorter with power tools and that's my easy way out for now.

 

[DavidF]

Re: Dovetail Jig

Your're absolutely right, perhaps I should be wearing a cloth cap and hob nailed boots and whittling somewhere:lol:, but when I go to a country fair or similar, I head straight for the old boy showing thatching or rake making and stand fasinated by what can be acheived by simple tools in the right hands. Carvers have my absolute adoration:jealous:

Now this is probably getting "off topic" sorry Steve, for a thread marked "Dovetail jig", but IMHO the same happens with design, if we all only make things from published plans or re-produce an 18th century piece exactely, I feel we are missing out on the "total experience" of creating a unique piece.

When I wer' a lad...........

 

[SteveColes]

Don't worry about off-topic. It's not like you starting discussing drugs, sex and rock n roll (How Come:lol: )

This is a good thread, because it focuses on some fundamental issues that are worthy of discussion.

So, probably repeating myself, but here's my view. I am a hobbyist. There is a wealth of choices of how I want to achieve my goals. But what is my goal? Well right now it is to produce an end product. Whether it is a cabinet or a table or a jig. Right now, I want to get to the end product. So the process, I have chosen is primarily power tools. Someday, my goals may evolve into the hand process rather than the end product. But that hasn't arrived.

I know that that is the exact opposite of the European and Japanese apprentice system way of learning. But this my way and from what I've seen, it the way a lot of hobbyists go.

Now just to take this discussion to an absurd point of view , When is the last you took a hand saw and ripped an 8 ft length of sheet goods. I have seen carpenters do it faster and straighter that I can do it with a circular or a table saw. And it is certainly cheaper.:eusa_danc

Oh BTW, I split this thread and moved it.

 

[Steve D]

I have the utmost respect for the ability to do things with hand tools but for me it really depends on what I'm doing. Most of my tool purchases have been oriented (read justified) around a specific project. I went with a 3.5HP router from Milwaukee recently because of the number of raised panels I'm doing. Vertical bits were a pain on tall panels and my PC 690 wasn't variable speed. I bought the after market variable speed but it takes too many passes of light cuts to raise a panel. For now the project tends to dictate when I use power tools and when I use hand tools I think both have their place in my shop. I like to learn new ways of doing things and will continue to acquire both. The cherry countertop I recently made was too big to flatten withe my Performax 16/32 drum sander without building substantial infeed and outfeed tables so I planed it by hand with a jack plane and scraped it smooth. There was a lot of satisfaction in that part of the project but I felt it for days afterward. I'd be lying if I didn't say that I wished for a widebelt sander about halfway through the job.:lol:

Steve D

 

[sapwood]

DavidF,

Thanks for bringing a new perspective to the forum. I don't know squat about woodworking but I have really enjoyed my few attempts with hand tools. I've been learning how to sharpen chisels (there aren't scary sharp yet ;-)), but I'm getting better. Yesterday I was using my 13" power planer on the "beach wood" I found last week. But it was leaving part of the board "tufted" no matter what I did. So today I tried using the only hand plane (old Shelton smoother) I own and the results were great. :mrgreen: Spending an hour or so learning how to use a hand plane was the most fun I've had working with wood in while. Certainly, I have a long way to go--but I took another small step forward :-D

Uh-oh, I too apologize about the thread hijack :eusa_shhh

Sapwood

 

[clowman]

I think I'll have to sorta weigh in with Steve on this one. I'm a self taught woodworker. Ok, don't count the WWing shows on PBS, they helped alot. But, my allotted time in the shop is limited, and I love seeing results. If I had to cut DTails by hand, they wouldnt' get done. I don't know how, I have nobody to teach me. Admittedly, I haven't searched hard. I can completely understand where you are comming from though. It's like schools teaching kids to do math with a calculator. Remove the calculator, and they can't add. Remove my router, and I can't make a dovetail....

Did I make any sense at all? Or was this a huge wasted ramble?

 

[SteveColes]

Re: Dovetail Jig

...but when I go to a country fair or similar, I head straight for the old boy showing thatching or rake making and stand fasinated by what can be acheived by simple tools in the right hands. Carvers have my absolute adoration:jealous:

...I feel we are missing out on the "total experience" of creating a unique piece.

...

The wierd thing is I feel the same way about lots of things. But for me just now, I'm going to use power more than hand.

 

[JohnsonMBrandon]

Anyone have a guide on how to cut dove tails by hand easily?

 

[DaveO]

There is a really good article by Frank Klausz in the Oct. '05 issue of Pop. Ww'ing. I saw him at a TWA meeting and he make it look so easy. I have the issue if you want to check it out. Dave

 

[Jonz]

I've always been just like Steve says, interested in the end product, and never really cared how I arrived there.

This past year I started getting into hand tools. I have all the basic power tools and that's what I've always used. Prior to this year I probably never spent much more time on a hand saw than the average person, and always pretty much thought that sawing a board by hand, or thicknessing with a plane, someone had to be off their rocker.

I had some health problems and didn't feel too good for a while, so I thought maybe some hand tools would be a good way to get into the shop but without the chaotic noise and dust. I just wanted to be relaxed. But what I got was really absorbed in the process as much as the end product. I got into the tools, the history, the techniques, the joinery, and furniture itself. The craftsmen (people) who put so many years into learning their skills.

There is a steep learning curve, and I'm still on the low end of it. But I've put a lot of time into learning to sharpen and learning what sharp really means, and tuning and maintaining some of these tools. I've cut a lot of dovetails on a lot of scrap wood, and chopped mortises by hand.

I won't ever stop using power tools, but I'm enjoying the traditional side of it very much, and for me personally it makes me feel like I'm learning the craft to the best of my ability.

 

[fsdogwood]

I've seen the handcut DT session last year at the TWA meeting. The
problem is, I was sitting far behind in the meeting area, and I don't think
I was able to get enough info from the demo.
Didn't have time this year, so I missed the Frank Clausz session. The
article in the recent Popular Woodworking mag. is really helpful! Read it,
grab 2 pieces of wood, you can start making through DTs.
Needless to say, the first ones should always be bad, and it usually takes
quite some time to even get the two pieces of wood match. (You can
search for the posts in other forums about the images of the first time
handcut DTs)
If you could have one afternoon, you'll see the progress, and the
improvement.

As far as the jig, I haven't used one, even though I got a crappy HF one
that will cut through DTs. Don't you have to try-and-error to get the
settings correct?

 

[DavidF]

What an excellent response, just goes to show what an open minded lot you are! Regarding the ripping of an 8 ft board? no, I haven't done it recently and I don't suppose I ever will. What I do find increasingly is that my initial thought when contemplating a tricky cut is not how I can fiddle or make a jig so that I can use a PT for the one or two cuts, but that it would be faster (there's that time thing again) and safer (for the job) to use a hand tool. Case in point is the cuts around the perimeter of the demilune table (see gallery); cutting those with a TS - problem controlling the piece, jig saw, possibility of the cut not being perpendicular (I hate jigsaws for that!!), router - rounded corners - so what's left? A tenon saw, 8 cuts, aligned with the tangent with a single piece of wood as a guide "Bob's your Uncle" done 25 mins under complete control. That's my point, to make the use of a hand tool an option, that may in fact be the best one, but to make it a serious option we need to know how to use and sharpen and select the hand tool.

 

[JohnsonMBrandon]

Dave O,

I would love to see that article at some point. It sounds pretty interesting. As soon as i have a chance to get a hold of some maple I am going to make a homemade dovetail jig. Hopefully I will be on that later this week.

 

[Steve D]

David,


Great thoughts and you are right, sometimes we spend far more time setting up for a power tool than if we just did it by hand. I certainly have ruined hours of work with tearout from a power tool. Much of my experience has been with off the shelf hand tools and I'm just learning how much better they perform when they are actually sharp and properly tuned. Good hand tools are not inexpensive but will last for generations if properly cared for.

Steve D

 

[DavidF]

http://www.amgron.clara.net/

Have a look here for the best detail on dt making I have seen in a while.

 

[lbmallett]

I've been following this thread for some time and can't resist putting in my 2 cents. Not to be taken as criticism of anybody's pursuit of this very enjoyable hobby.

My Webster’s dictionary defines “hobby” as “a pursuit outside one’s regular occupation engaged in for relaxation.” The key word here is “relaxation.” Whether one is able to relax by producing something using only their bare hands and a crude set of tools or by using every power tool known to man, is, IMO, irrelevant. The idea is to relax and enjoy the hobby.



In my case, I plan to build furniture based on Shaker designs. I will use power tools to thickness and dimension stock, cut dadoes and grooves and use various jigs to cut some DT’s and M/T’s. I will also use hand tools to cut some joints because I enjoy doing it and I may want the piece to have a certain look that cannot be achieved by using a jig. IMO, if our forefathers had table saws, jointers, planers, etc available to them, they would have used them. Why waste energy ripping a long board using a hand saw when it can be done much easier and probably more accurately on a table saw?



I also do not feel personally obligated to preserve old hand tool woodworking skills. I don’t know how to plow a field with a mule and a single tine plow. I also don’t know how to hitch a horse to a buggy. I have other, more efficient and faster ways to plow my garden and get from point A to point B. For those of you who want to preserve the artistry of our forefathers by designing and building your projects using exclusively hand tools I admire your dedication and respect your decision to do so. It’s just not the way I relax in my shop.