Piping in my HF Dust Collector

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stal023

New User
Stal
IMG_2937.jpg

Finally taking the time to figure out how to pipe in my dust collector to my small shop. Basically, I have (in the photo) along one wall is my miter saw and then table saw, on the other wall is my planer and my router table. There is a lot of information out there on how to go about this, thin-walled pvc, metal tubing, etc. How do y'all suggest making this small space efficient to run a line to each machine?

I'vew also started to build a thien baffle to add to the mix....

Here are a few links I have looked at;
http://www.woodmagazine.com/pipe-dreams
 

JimD

Jim
Senior User
When I used my little 1hp Delta, I ran 4 inch thin plastic pipe around the ceiling and had drops for the tools with blast gates (home made). I opened a gate and turned the unit on. It worked. But it couldn't keep up with my lunchbox planner or my jointer. My shop vac will also not keep up with these tools but will do all the others. So I souped it up with a dust deputy and auto on switch and just use that.

4 inch plastic pipe is cheap and readily available but I don't know if it will flow enough air for the same sort of tools I had issues with. If it will, that would be a good way to go.

If you haven't switched to a 1 micron bag, I think you should. Even better would be a cartridge filter. I got all kinds of fine dust in my shop using a coarse bag on my little Delta. I eventually went to a cartridge filter but then had to clean it more than I wanted. A super dust deputy would help with that (as the dust deputy does on my shop vac).
 

sawman101

Bruce Swanson
Corporate Member
I plumbed in my used HF DC, and used 4" plastic drain pipe. I bought it and and the Ys,Ts, and couplings, plus a roll of metal pipe hanger strap. I used around 50' of pipe and many Ys to branch to various machines. I used transparent 4" hose and connectors from Klingspors. The DC is original except for replacing the bottom cloth bag, which split due to age, with plastic bags, available in a pack of 5 from Klingspors also. I also installed a wireless switch, again from Klingspors. I have connections to 2 bandsaws, 12" compound miter saw, 10" Jet bandsaw, 13" Jet planer, router table, floor sweep, and 1 Jet VS Mini Lathe. If I ever use it again, I'll hook up to the Grizzly 14/42 Lathe. The system is working very well. The big shop vac couldn't keep up with the 13" planer, but this system does a fine job. I should also mention that I got a big Brute trash can, and a lid to fit it that made an inexpesive, but somewhat effective cyclone. I won't pretend it does the job of a real cyclone, but when the bag is ready to empty, so is the big can, around 45-50 gallons in size. The system does all I expect and ask, and I think I've probably got more money in the piping and fittings, along with the switch, than my original investment. The DC is in an 8'x8' added to the outside of the shop, so no extra dust flying about the air in the shop. Judging by the interior of the DC room, it doesn't appear any stray dust is circulating in there either. Hope this helps you.
 

Rwe2156

DrBob
Senior User
Its going to be tough in a small shop. You may want to consider going mobile?

For a 2 HP collector, no question 6" ducts will perform better. PVC SD pipe works fine careful on the fittings there are expensive ones and cheap ones.

Unless you're venting outside (which is the best way) you really need to upgrade to a canister filter or at least an air filtration unit.

Air quality is a major issue in ww'ing if we don't protect our lungs we could pay big time later. They call them dust collectors, but they can be dust producers, too the only duct collection will be in your lungs.!!
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
In a shop that size look at the Rockler Dust-Right system. A 20' or 30' flexible connection can be moved around to multiple machines as needed and double as a 4" vacuum for stray sawdust. I still use one for several machines that get rolled around my shop a lot. Never used in the same place.
 

stal023

New User
Stal
So this is the frustrating part of posting on this site, people not actually answering the question. I didn't suggest I was going to get a new DC. I simply want to know the best pipe to use for the best bang for the buck. Instead of me installing something and regretting it, I thought I would post on here.
 

stal023

New User
Stal
So, let me back up and ask specific questions;

1. Is it recommended to have sewer grade PVC or metal piping? Why?
1a. If you say PVC, I've seen video of grounding a copper wire and wrapping around the pipe. Needed, or waste of time?
2. Size of pipe? Do I run 6" as the main pipe and have reducers to each machine?
3. Blast gates....matter where they are installed?
3a. Metal, plastic or spend the time making your own?


Any knowledge you have with your experiences, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 

Alan in Little Washington

Alan Schaffter
Corporate Member
I think you might have saved yourself a bit of frustration if you would just learn/use the search function here. These topics have been beat to death over the years- as they say in court, "Asked and answered." If you had done that you would have also learned about a website with the most extensive home shop dust collection information around- Google Bill Pentz. You appear to be looking for quick and simple answers to a complex topic. For some topics you'll get a different answer from every person you ask.

That being said, everyone has different needs, resources and opinions, but unless they have the exact same setup as you, what they say may not be appropriate for you (or they may just be wrong!). Also, by educating yourself about dust collection you will understand why 6" pipe is better than 4" in most situations, you'll learn the difference between "chip collection" and "dust collection", fan curves, CFM and SP, why you should run max diameter from DC to machine instead of reducing, etc., etc., etc. and you will know the potential health hazards of woodshop dust. Once you learn all this stuff, you can then decide what meets your needs and budget, do you want good dust collection or are you just looking to prevent chips from littering your shop floor.
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
So this is the frustrating part of posting on this site, people not actually answering the question. I didn't suggest I was going to get a new DC. I simply want to know the best pipe to use for the best bang for the buck. Instead of me installing something and regretting it, I thought I would post on here.

Please understand that a very basic rule of the Internet, and forums in general, is that while you may ask any question you want, you do not get to choose the answers that you will receive nor what other aspects of the topic a thread may evolve into...in part because those answers are to a much wider audience than just yourself. One must understand that while you may consider a thread to be yours and yours alone, the thread, the subject being discussed, and any replies that may follow, are really oriented at a far greater audience than just you as the subject matter is written for a world audience also interested in the subject. That is how knowledge gets disbursed far and wide. If the replies were so narrowly focused as to have meaning only to you then no real knowledge is disseminated and there is little value to asking the question in a public forum, even less reason for others to follow the thread, since the answer may literally be so specific as to apply to a singular person in all the world (depending upon just how specific the original question and subject may be). None of this is meant to be taken personally, nor should it, just remember that the primary goal of sites such as ours is to share applicable knowledge to any who may discover the thread, whether that be today or ten years from now, and not just for the benefit of the original poster.

The main reason you are receiving suggestions regarding upgraded dust collectors (DC) is because a 1HP DC is only marginally effective (and even that is assuming one of optimal design) due to the limited volume of air they can move and the limited static pressure they can generate. As such a 1HP single stage DC is not really well suited to being plumbed into a workshop but is best treated as a mobile DC where the absolute shortest possible length of hose between the DC and tool is used, preferably less than a 10ft length if using smooth walled flexible DC hose (even less if using corrugated drainage pipe), or at least the absolute minimum one can get by with -- and that generally means a single length of flexible hose that is moved from tool to tool as needed rather than a plumbed shop. Plumbing a shop really starts out at the 1-1/2 to 2HP range for single stage DCs (2-3HP for cyclone DCs) where you can better afford the static pressure losses from extended runs of smooth rigid piping with minimal lengths of flexible hose at the tool and still maintain adequate air velocities.

Whenever plumbing a shop for dust collection you want to use a rigid ducting system that has as smooth an interior as possible and which provides for wide sweeping turns and branches so as to keep airflow as laminar and undisturbed as possible as any disturbance both increases static pressure losses, reduces velocity and volume, and presents opportunities for heavier waste to fall out of the airstream and collect, possibly leading to clogs if the air velocity drops too low within a given section. Clearing such clogs can require disassembly of the ducting, once the obstruction is located, and that is very inconvenient so you want to avoid such by utilizing best practices to the extent you can practically. Be careful if using general HVAC steel ducting as the cheaper alternatives can have very thin walls and can be collapsed easily by more powerful DC systems if all gates are ever left closed by accident or is impacted while moving wood stock or tools about your shop -- destroying your investment and time. While heavy rigid ducting designed specifically for dust collection are the best to use, they are also quite expensive. That expense leads many to use the heavier HVAC ducting as well as alternatives like PVC (either solid PVC/ABS or the foam core DWV, drain waste vent) PVC piping to save money while still getting reasonable performance if implemented wisely. If using PVC (and related) pipe, keep in mind that many bends in Wyes, elbows, and the like, can be much too severe if the fitting used was intended for water transport and can create excessive turbulence, so try to use fittings geared towards waste lines, or even electrical conduit, where the bends and curves tend to be much more graceful than with fittings oriented towards water transport.

When it comes to flexible hose it is best to use the smooth walled spiral reinforced polyurethane hoses as foot for foot they incur the least amount of loss for a given length of hose and maintain higher air velocity. Corrugated drainage hose, while often used, is about the worst of all the flexible hose choices one can opt for, but often gets used simply because it is dirt cheap, though such can be acceptable if you are using a more powerful DC and a very short length of such hose (for example, a 2-3ft section between the tool and fixed rigid ducting). The real issue with corrugated hose is the corrugations themselves as they create a lot of disturbance to airflow, especially around bends, and that greatly reduces both the velocity of the airflow as well as the air volume and breaks up the laminar airflow that one wants to preserve as much as practical. However, even the most ideal and highest quality flexible hose is many times worse than rigid smooth walled ducting -- even 10ft of the best polyurethane hose is probably equal in losses to about 30-40ft of rigid duct of the same diameter (there are charts of estimated static pressure loss you can refer to both online and in books on the subject, if interested).

The actual subject of efficiently plumbing dust collection systems is really quite involved and is focused on using the largest practical diameter ducting while still maintaining a suitably high air velocity in that larger duct and gradually stepping down in size along the way (such as with branches) as static pressure losses begin to rob one of the needed minimum velocity in the larger duct and can require partially opening bypass gates at the ends of a run to ensure adequate air velocity at all times in the main trunk lines, and so forth. There is an amazing amount of science and engineering involved, especially as such systems grow in size and complexity. Fortunately, one can get away with a number of sins in a small personal workshop since we are not governed by OSHA exposure limits and we can use ambient air cleaners to effectively scrub from the air much of what we failed to capture at the source in terms of very fine dust (the harmful portion), but it is still best to capture fine dust at the source as best one can. So do the best you can and use the best materials and practices as your shop and budget allow.

You will want to seriously consider upgrading your DC air filtration to a 1-micron bag or canister filter as 5 microns (if that is what came with your DC) is large enough to allow the very most harmful of fine dust to escape from your DC, negating one of the greatest arguments for dust collection in the workshop as wood dust in the range of 1-5 microns is a known carcinogenic and can severely exacerbate breathing issues if you have allergies, asthma, or other respiratory disorders. It can be especially problematic if one works with exotic African woods or spalted woods as they are some of the most dangerous to inhale and a good 1-micron filter goes a long ways towards reducing those risks. The downside of installing a 1-micron filter, however, is that it will further restrict the volume of air and static pressure that your DC can generate, how much will depend entirely upon the amount of surface area the filter provides, which is where a deeply pleated canister filter is most helpful as they help to maximize filter surface area and minimize those losses while still providing you all the health benefits of the improved filtration.

Adding a Thien filter in front of your DC will further restrict the airflow and static pressure available to you to work with as there is no free lunch and the work done by the Thien prefilter is essentially obtained by robbing some of that power from your DC. How much of a loss will depend heavily upon how efficient and optimized a Thien filter design you can build. Some of those losses can be offset by reducing clogging of the DC filter bag or canister, though in the case of a canister filter the benefit will be less apparent since they provide considerably more filter surface area to begin with and often include a paddle you can rotate to knock accumulated dust off the filter at regular intervals. If you upgrade the DC filter I would first start out without the Thien prefilter and then evaluate after some use whether or not you feel you really need the benefit of the Thien filter as you may find that you do not unless your impeller is regularly getting clogged with oversized debris. If you do not upgrade your filters then you will almost certainly want the Thien prefilter, but you really should upgrade the filtration -- and possibly even add an ambient air cleaner with 1-micron filtration as well -- if yours, or your family's health is of any concern (but especially if using exotic or spalted woods), particularly if your shop is attached to your house.

Good luck and I wish you all the best with your shop upgrade!
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
I think that thin-wall PVC pipe is the most economical and probably the easiest to work with. I'm getting ready to pipe a cyclone dust collector and that is what I'm using for the main trunk lines. I am going to connect to the various tools with flexible pipe, at least in most cases. I don't have a lot of concerns about dust explosions in a home shop environment. When you get right down to it, dust can explode in a metal pipe just about as easily as it can in a plastic pipe. The only home shop fire that I ever saw happened in a dust collector occurred when someone put a cigarette down on top of a shaper and the dust collector sucked it into the dust collection bin. (I saw that happen twice with shop vac's too.)

Pete

So this is the frustrating part of posting on this site, people not actually answering the question. I didn't suggest I was going to get a new DC. I simply want to know the best pipe to use for the best bang for the buck. Instead of me installing something and regretting it, I thought I would post on here.
 

wolfsburged

New User
Bill
Everyone has an opinion on this. Here is what I did. Maybe not "correct" or "best" but works within the limits of the size/space/budget I had.

I used the HF "2" HP dust collector, built the baffle and trash can setup, and used 4" S&D PVC piping for most of the distribution, then switched to 4" flexible dust collector hose and fittings for end connections.

The 4" black dust collection fittings are a hammer/press fit into the green S&D pipe and therefore you can adapt in/out of the PVC and dust collector pipes. This was the only reason I wend S&D vs regular white PVC pipe, as the regular SCH 40 PVC does not allow me to adapt to the black dust collection plastic pieces easily.

I like the clear flexible 4" dust collector hose that is commonly available multiple places. I have some of the gray/non transparent as well, but I like seeing the chips and dust move!

I've also hacked up various PVC fittings to make things work as I need them.

4" was cheaper and easier for me to work with. My tools are all old and not designed for dust collection so had to improvise there as well. It works pretty well. I have an overhead air filter that I run as well to catch the fines.

Here is the dust collector, baffle, etc. You can see the transition from PVC to flex hose clearly.
20150204_220222%20(Medium).jpg


20150204_220445%20(Medium).jpg


Example of making things work at the tool end:
20150207_110031%20(Medium).jpg


Overhead filter (when it was new and clean!):
20150207_111112%20(Medium).jpg
 

CDPeters

Master of None
Chris
Stal,

It looks like you don't have alot of head-room to work with, and a bunch of other "mechanicals" to work around. If I had to do that space, here is how I think I would approach it:

> Thein separator is a good idea, keep going with that
> Use plastic pipe, it's the cheapest option. Tape the joints with foil duct tape for future modification (don't cement them)
> Run a "trunk" line from the collector across the top of the wall on the left in the photo.
> Place "drops" for each of the machines along the left hand wall where needed
> Place runners across through the joist bays to the machines at the right hand wall.
> Make curves as gentle as possible and flex connections as short as possible (reduces static pressure).
> Place blast gates at each machine in order to be able to maximize air flow at the machine being used.

HTH,
C.
 

JimD

Jim
Senior User
No need for a ground wire on plastic piping. There is no explosion risk in a home dust collection system. If you google enough, you can find an authoritative source for this conclusion. I found that plastic purchased blast gates clogged with dust quickly. My home made ones worked great. Grounded metal may be better but plastic works.
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
No need for a ground wire on plastic piping. There is no explosion risk in a home dust collection system. If you google enough, you can find an authoritative source for this conclusion. I found that plastic purchased blast gates clogged with dust quickly. My home made ones worked great. Grounded metal may be better but plastic works.

There can be value to grounding the last few feet of the run just prior to the DC and in the dust bin itself (if a rigid bin is used, doesn't really work for bags, as is typical of single stage DCs), not out of explosion concern but it can reduce the static charge that can cause a lot of fine dust to cling to the DC, dust bin, and any windows that you may have to witness bin capacity. It can also reduce the unpleasant static discharge when handling such. I had to do such to reduce the static buildup in my dust bin so that I could actually see the waste height in the bin, without such the windows would become so heavily coated with fine dust that you could not see into the bin through the windows I have cut into it. So there can be reasons for wanting to do some limited grounding, but one does not need to be worried about static igniting fine sawdust while using typical hobbyist grade dust collectors (5HP and below).

I really have not had any issues with the plastic blast gates getting clogged (I have destroyed a couple from stepping on them over the years, but never had to clear any clogs) - YMMV. If you do use metal blast gates then it is best to ground them (oftentimes you can just ground them to the tool since most stationary power tools have a grounded metal chassis) as the static buildup on them can be a bit painful if you have been running the DC for a bit. Grounding will dissipate the static charge so you do not get bitten each time you reach for them.
 

NOTW

Notw
Senior User
On the topic of the sewer and drain piping, in my setup I currently use 4" sewer and drain PVC from Home Depot (the white thin wall pipe) but have thought about upgrading my main trunks to 6". Where can I find 6" thin wall pipe and fittings in the Raleigh area?
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
On the topic of the sewer and drain piping, in my setup I currently use 4" sewer and drain PVC from Home Depot (the white thin wall pipe) but have thought about upgrading my main trunks to 6". Where can I find 6" thin wall pipe and fittings in the Raleigh area?

Probably have to go to a plumbing supply house. Much easier to find 6" snap-together metal either locally or from somebody like Oneida or Penn State Industries. The snap-together metal pipe will be fine for up to about 3HP for your DC but if you get up to around 5HP for your DC and then you'll need to use more expensive spiral pipe.

If you go with metal just be sure and seal it thoroughly - everywhere. Buy a tub of the wax-like sealer they sell in the HVAC sections for this as well as the metal tape.
 

McRabbet

Rob
Corporate Member
On the topic of the sewer and drain piping, in my setup I currently use 4" sewer and drain PVC from Home Depot (the white thin wall pipe) but have thought about upgrading my main trunks to 6". Where can I find 6" thin wall pipe and fittings in the Raleigh area?

NOTW: Try AgriSupply in Garner. They show it on their website but the price is certainly higher than I recall from when I purchased some back in 2007 in upstate SC (I paid about $15/ 10 foot section). Be sure you buy D-2729 -- you can get fittings at Lowe's.

HTH

Rob
 

bobsmodels

Bob
Senior User
Thanks for the compliment.

I use a 3D CAD program called Geomagic (formerly Alibre). I have used it since 2008.

Bob
 
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