ONE more time...

[tvrgeek]

There are three grades of outlets and switches. Different brands call them different things and of course, they change them to keep everyone confused: Dirt cheap crap, OK for most things, and commercial grade.

Just replaced another $98 15A switch that failed ( house built in 96) with the $1.69 switch, which should last a good 50 years. With two 9W LEDs on it, I saw no need for a industrial $6.49 switch.

I have had to replace several outlets. Cheapest, back wired. They just fatigue and do not make good connection. Vac plug how when you unplug it as an example. Again, the middle grade and be sure you use the plug pattern that matches the outlet as I have seen 20A outlets on a 15A branch. FWIW, those fancy Decoura switches are the LOW grade. I have had one of them fail.

What did the contractor save? Maybe $100 on the entire house. What would it cost for an electrician to come diagnose and repair a bad switch? Probably 2 hours, so $250 at least. What does a fire cost? A lot more. It probably has cost me more in gas going to get new switches and outlets than they all cost to start with. Million dollar + house being built on the hill in front of me. Guess what outlets they use?

As I have heard, there have been a lot of issues with using dryer 30A outlets for electric car charging. Guess they same quality issue is there too. Personally, any 30A load I have is hard wired.

 

[JNCarr]

As I have heard, there have been a lot of issues with using dryer 30A outlets for electric car charging. Guess they same quality issue is there too. Personally, any 30A load I have is hard wired.

You'd need a LONNNNGGG pigtail to hardwire your car

 

[Gotcha6]

My Level 2 charging cable draws 32 amps so a 30 amp receptacle won't cut it. The 40a I have in the shop worked fine after I re-tightened the lug screws on the breaker that was causing overheating and tripping.
I'm not sure there is any software mods that can allow for a 30 amp charging port. But I only use the Level 2 when I have driven extensively and can't recharge overnight on Level 1 which is seldom.
EV Forums recommend you drop some extra coin on your 40a receptacle to avoid problems down the road like you have experienced.
Unfortunately, most homes built the last several years are only built to code. Why do I say, "only"? Because if you think about it, building codes are the minimum standards. They are saying you can't build it any sorrier than that.

 

[chris_goris]

There are three grades of outlets and switches. Different brands call them different things and of course, they change them to keep everyone confused: Dirt cheap crap, OK for most things, and commercial grade.

Just replaced another $98 15A switch that failed ( house built in 96) with the $1.69 switch, which should last a good 50 years. With two 9W LEDs on it, I saw no need for a industrial $6.49 switch.

I have had to replace several outlets. Cheapest, back wired.

By "back wired" do you mean the electrician used the push in terminals and not the screws?

 

[Gofor]

For really "cheap" (not necessarily inexpensive), the outlets used in "Pre manufactured" mobile homes, RVs, etc are IMHO a disaster waiting to happen. I don't know if they have changed the code in NC, but my nephew used to be a state inspector for this class of construction, and some of the junk he showed me that was "approved" was appalling. Designed to fit in the smaller wall depth of wall, they basically had the wire pressed into a split blade and the receptacle was then folded closed.

 

[mkepke]

I agree with you on avoiding the super-cheap receptacles. I’ve had two of them literally fall to pieces in my house - as in: when I pulled out the receptacle to see why it stopped working, it came out in pieces.

I can see issues using a dryer plug for charging an EV. The design of a dryer plug wouldn’t expect near daily plugging-in/out.

Semi-related : how do you all feel about using those newer Wago style electrical connectors for residential work?

Wire Connector, Splicing - 40 2-Port, 20 3-Port, 10 5-Port (Pack of 70)

-Mark

 

[tvrgeek]

By "back wired" do you mean the electrician used the push in terminals and not the screws?

By back-wire, yea, the simple prong held spring back holes. Not like on better ones where the screw clamps the wire under the tab, as that works fine, instead of hooking it around. I think, without controlled testing just my experience, the clamp method is fine for low amp circuits like lights, but for my outlets, I will go full hook around the screw. The act of torqueing it will cut through the surface oxidation and give a better pure metal contact. to be air-tight. They also used crimp rings like I have seen more often on grounds wrapped with tape instead of wire nuts. I did find one of those connections failed in my house. Also, most $.98 switches don't even have a ground lug on them. How this is considered safe in a plastic box with metal screws in the switch plate I just don't understand!

My first "mobile home", i.e. tin can, had zip cord wiring with exposed switches and outlets just screwed to the paneling. No box at all. Caught a fire in my first week. My later big double wide had real wire, but those clamp together pieces of garbage. They were super cheap as the switch was the box. I did not know they were still in use with HUD requirements. If I wrote insurance, I would not insure them. Too little surface area and the stress from the sharp edges of the split though the wire making it subject to breaking. Spilt pins, invented for phone system "punch down blocks" and later became the dreaded "Scotch locks" that guarantee a broken or burnt wire in many a car and trailer. I will admit, terminating 3 50-pair cables in our office standing on a ladder, at least they were easy. As little vibration and inside environment, I don't recall ever a failed punch-down. I have fixed many a Scotch lock failure.

Minimum code. OK for a ultra cheap starter tract home maybe, but people pay 7 figures and get the same crap! Now I see new "lever clamp" outlets and switches. Not enough surface area and no where enough pressure to form a gas-tight connection to prevent oxidation. I would not get near one. A screw terminal will. I learned a lot when I took the two week long class on connections* from AMP back when I was in failure analysis, so yea, I have an attitude though I feel it is founded in science. The lever cap, many brands now including Chinese clone crap, may be fast. but it is not really very hard to correctly twist wires ( large surface area) and use a nut. I liked the old 3M ones that were soft and springy as they dealt with thermal stress better. Even better is the European method of welding the tips before you put the nut on. I saw a You-tube doing this but they used a single heat shrink which is not 600V rated and it cuts way too easily!

If I had my way, all wire would be armored, thin wall, or PVC conduit so rodents could not damage it. I would require one size larger wire than is normal for outlets and appliances. other words, a 15A outlet would have 12 gauge, 20A, 10 gauge. I believe 30A and higher should be hard-wired terminal blocks. Not outlets. The US codes and the materials we use are decades behind much of the rest of the world. Even our stupid exposed pin plugs.

I know labor costs are driving a lot of the "innovation" and most consumers do not understand the difference. If builders had a display board that showed the "minimum, fastest, cheapest" and the safer more durable methods with a cost difference clear, I bet a lot would go for the better. What is the difference in a single family home? A couple thousand total? Corporate builders and 5000 house developments? ( yea, I liven in a Levitt house) push to save that extra buck. Do I want laws? NO. A far better way is to let the underwriters do the requirements. It is their money at risk. I believe at least at one time NYC inspectors were underwriters, not city code. Self policing.

I also have my own requirements for all the little British sports cars I have rewired. There is no reason for an electrical fault in a car. It is not hard. We do still love to tell "Lucas, Prince of Darkness" jokes.

* They went from every layer, transistor-to-transistor on a chip all the way up to high tension lines. We re-designed a lot of things in our manufacturing procedures. A lot of time spent on fretting corrosion.

 

[chris_goris]

Im pretty sure most municipalities dont allow using those holes anymore. Talk about a fire hazard. You may want to check them all.

 

[tvrgeek]

THat would be good. Next time I am in Home Despot, I'll look to see if they still sell them. I find they often sell things that do not meet code. "Buyers responsibility"

 

[chris_goris]

I know they still sell them. That in no way has anything to do with codes however. This one of those scenarios where an experienced electrician should be used in place of DIY.... people dont know what they dont know. And yes, it IS the buyers responsibility to install whatever they install, light, switch, range cord, it can ALL be done incorrectly.

 

[pop-pop]

My experience with Scotch-Loc in automotive applications was they tended to fail after a year or more. Just long enough so that I forgot where I used them making diagnosis more difficult.

 

[Hmerkle]

I thought back-wired devices were 14 AWG. While you could, I wouldn't use 14 AWG for 15 AMPs let alone 20 Amps... so there is that.
Back-wireing is fine, and a proven technology, but as Scott points out, if the device is poorly installed and moves with insertion and release of a plug, you are basically "unwiring" the device...

O.K. now let's start the discussion on the WAGO or Ideal poke-in junction box connectors...