New Shop - 2 Car Garage

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JohnsonMBrandon

New User
Brandon Johnson
I'll be moving in a few weeks to my new home in which I intend to use my 2 car garage as my shop. Problem is there is a gas hot water heater in the shop. Any of you guys have this same problem, and if so what precautions or preventions to you take. Obviously don't dump sawdust close to it, but as far as finishing goes and that sort of thing what would you do. I am at a loss on this one I think. I am a little aprehensive.
 

D L Ames

New User
D L Ames
Brandon, I understand your concern. I don't have that issue other than the heater I use (but not while finishing) from time to time to heat the shop. Is there any change you could re-plumb the heater through an outside wall and build a small outdoor closet next to the garage wall to house the WH? Just a thought.

D L
 

JohnsonMBrandon

New User
Brandon Johnson
It would probably be dificult to do that. I may have to explore that option though, or find an alternate location to finish.
 

Steve D

Member
Steve DeWeese
Brandon,

I had that at my house in SC. The biigest concern would be the pilot if spraying flamable finishes. You also would not want to store flamable materials near it. If you can move it, great but if not. No big deal. Chris can jump in here as well but from a fireman's perspective the two main concerns are igniting something flamable and maintaining proper venting of the exhaust gases. It really takes a high concentration to ignite flamable vapors. There is both a lower explosive limit (the minimum to ignite) and an upper limit (not enough air to ignite). If you maintain adequate ventilation you wil be fine. I used to spray shellac in my shop but only with the double door open and spraying in front of an exhaust fan.
 

mkepke

Mark
Senior User
Brandon - I had the same set up for seven years in my last house. The only real precautions I took were to NOT spray any finishes in the garage, and to use all other solvent-based finishes away from the water heater. I basically took the tact that if a finish couldn't be hand-applied w/o the use of a respirator, it had to be done outside. Also, no solvent containers left open and rags went outside right after use.

Wood dust was never an issue (that I know about). I developed a respectable layer of it in the gas furnace, but the HVAC guy never thought it was a problem. The gas furnace sat immediately next to the water heater.

-Mark
 

chris99z71

New User
Chris
OK, I'll take the bait... :)
Here are a few things that I'd consider.
The lower explosive limit (lowest concentration by percent volume needed to form an explosive or flammable mixture) is pretty low for paint thinner, for example. It's less than 1% (gasoline is 1.4%). Keep in mind now we're not talking 1 gallon of paint thinner to 100 gallons of air. It's 1 gallon of pure thinner vapors per 100 gallons of air.
There are only 14 gases lighter than air. I not able to find a single solvent that had a vapor density lower than air. This means that any solvent vapors (that I know of) are heavier than air and will have a tendency to accumulate in higher concentrations at the lowest point of the room, beit the floor or otherwise. This includes right around the pilot light for a gas/propane water heater.
Do I think you're being overly paranoid? Absolutely not. I'm not trying to scare the bejesus out of anybody, just to get people to think. Although, people who don't think make for fantastic job security for those in the fire and EMS service-in fact, they make our best repeat customers! :lol:

I'd look into a few ideas. Moving the waterheater? Put it on the other side of the wall? Put it up higher? Maybe build a box around it that's sealed off from that the inside of the house? Granted then it'd have to pull air from somewhere else, either outside or elsewhere in the house. I even thought about a box built around the water heater under slight positive pressure compared to the garage perhaps from a fan bringing in outside air, but then I'd worry about the positive pressure air blowing out the pilot as it exits through the "chimney" pipe.
Certainly whenever it's warm enough out, I'd try to create come kind of cross ventillation that pushes solvent vapors away from the waterheater. I'd also stick with finishes that aren't sprayed in the months where outside ventillation is several frostbitten toes out of the question. I can't imagine that a brush or wipe on finish creates less vapors than a spray. Other than that I can't think of any cheaper/easier solutions. Maybe somebody else here will chime in?

BTW, if I'm wrong on anything above, don't be afraid to call me out on it. I'd rather that than be spreading misinformation.
 
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JohnsonMBrandon

New User
Brandon Johnson
Thats pretty much what I was thinking as well. I have a some fire background as well, but was wondering what most people actually practiced. I think you could probably even spray with the garage door open or a screen over it or something like that. I wouldn't try it, but don't think you would ever reach a high enough concentration to get the kaboom! Guess I will stick to hand finishes on the other side of the garage seems to be the best idea.
 

Steve D

Member
Steve DeWeese
I didn't mean to minimize the fact that there are precautions to take but simply to indicate that it would not limit your ability to utilize the space.

If you take the proper precautions, you can easily spray without a concern. You can also stick with water based products and not have an issue at all. Keep in mind that your water heater is a constant source of ignition but all of us run the same risk of ignition from other sources. The arc of electricity from my compressor kicking on is capable of doing the same thing. No one should spray in an environment capable of reaching the LEL of the material they are using. Fire prevention and safety in your shop are even more important than general tool safety. A tool isn't likely to harm you or your property at 2:00 in the morning but a pile of oily rags can.

You are equally at risk if you spend the day enclosed in the garage and the exhaust is not venting properly from the water heater. You will want to make sure that it is maintained properly and not pumping carbon monoxide into your shop or house.
 

hpetty

New User
Hugh
I'll add my comments to this discussion but leave the technical aspects of the safety issue to those better informed than me.

I have used an exposed flame gas heater in various shops (two car garages and utility sheds) without a negative incident for years. BUT I have always noticed an additional odor in the room when I used any finish or solvent that contained oil or petroleum products. I assumed this meant the flame was burning off some of the vapors in the room. I now wonder if that is a good sign, or a warning sign? :?:
 

hpetty

New User
Hugh
Forgot to add my congratulations on the new house... and better yet the NEW SHOP!!!:lol: :lol:
 

Steve D

Member
Steve DeWeese
Yeah, congratulations on the two door shop, and it comes with a house too! Sweeeet :mrgreen:
 

D L Ames

New User
D L Ames
JohnsonMBrandon said:
Replacing the water heater means one less tool purchase for the year. I guess thats how I look at it.

- Brandon

Brandon, replacing the WH now may mean one less tool this year but it could save you from replacing a whole garage full of tools in the years to come.

Sorry, back in 70's I had a neighbor that was nearly killed in a garage fire that was caused by him trying to swap out the gas tank on a car. There was a gas WH in the garage which ignited from the fumes and the resulting fire destroyed not only the garage but almost his parents house. He ended up facing a long painful road to recovery and left him permanently scared for life.

D L
 

JohnsonMBrandon

New User
Brandon Johnson
The problem is I probably won't be in this house for many years. I can always finish my stuff somewhere else also. I guess for now if I spray I will stick to water based, or if I wipe I will make sure I have plenty of ventilation and stay away from the hot water heater. My goal is to be out of this place in five years, but as always the market my play a rold in determining that.
 

mkepke

Mark
Senior User
chris99z71 said:
<snip>I can't imagine that a brush or wipe on finish creates less vapors than a spray. Other than that I can't think of any cheaper/easier solutions. Maybe somebody else here will chime in?

BTW, if I'm wrong on anything above, don't be afraid to call me out on it. I'd rather that than be spreading misinformation.
I'm no fireman, but I see two key differences between brushing and spraying.

Spraying creates an overspray cloud, which is a finely atomized liquid fuel load. As "overspray" implies, it is finish that has not hit the project and gone somewhere else.

Sprayed finishes will tend to have a higher percentage of solvents to thin them for spraying.

Has anybody found an easy to use WB lacquer ? I tried a couple of gallons of WB lacquer from Target Coatings a while ago, but found it too finiky for a non-climate controlled shop. I went back to shooting Deft - the really, really flammable stuff :lol:

-Mark
 

DavidF

New User
David
Just my two pen'th, but I would lean more towards WB stuff. The results are good these days, the clean up easier and the environment will thank you for it.
 

Steve D

Member
Steve DeWeese
I use the new Ultima Spray Lacquer from Target and like it very much. It is WB, flows nicely and dries quickly. You do need to pay a little attention to the viscosity and thin some when it is really cold but I sprayed a bunch last night with it about 50 degrees. I've found that keeping the lacquer warm (storing it somewhere warm) eliminates the need to thin.
 

DavidF

New User
David
What's your spray set up steve? I may be looking at moving to that in a very small way. I guess HVLP is the way to go, but other than that, no idea. This would be for infrequent use and cost is a big part of the equation. Any body else out there got comments?
 

Steve D

Member
Steve DeWeese
David,

Spray equipment is definitely one of those categories where you get what you pay for. IMHO HVLP is the way to go and you can get there with a 3 stage turbine unit or a conversion gun. I have 2 conversion guns and I'm pleased with their performance. The first one I bought is a Walcom STM. It is actually a touch up gun but is great for projects the size of your demilume table. I chose that because of its low CFM requirements so I could use it with my existing pancake compressor. Later I had a larger job so I bought a big compressor and an Asturo BR conversion gun. The Walcom is a gravity feed and the Asturo has a 1QT pressure pot. Keep your eye one www.homesteadfinishing.com , Jeff frequently has very good guns that he used for classes and demonstrations that are great bargains.
 
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