Moving from Carpentry to Cabinetry

[Sourwould]

I've worked in construction since ~2013 or so. I've been a framer and mostly done remodel and historical work. Lots of additions, decks, trim outs, etc.

I'd really like to move from doing this kind of general construction to smaller scale cabinetry (built-ins, vanities, etc). I've done this kind of work on and off, so I have some experience there. I say smaller scale because I don't see competing with Vietnamese flat pack cabinets or home depot on full kitchens.

I'm curious if anyone here has made this kind of transition, and how you did it.

 

[Jeff]

I knew a little bit about framing work before I started woodworking as a hobby. I read a lot and subscribed to "Fine Woodworking" magazine including their digital access. Learn about various types of woodworking joints and how to use and make them (mortise & tenon, rabbet, dado, etc).

 

[mdbuntyn]

Reach out to @Willemjm & @Graywolf. I'm sure that there are other working cabinet makers here, but they're the ones that immediately come to mind.

 

[Skymaster]

Trimmer here for 30 yrs, now retired,broke one off cabinet builder,book cases, etc urns Transition really is not a big deal, same thing but on a smaller scale, same math,measuring etc, only difference is instead of +- 1/4" framing now +- 1/64

 

[Willemjm]

Reach out to @Willemjm & @Graywolf. I'm sure that there are other working cabinet makers here, but they're the ones that immediately come to mind.

It depends what you want to do. Unfortunately if it is making money, doing as little as possible yourself is where you will find success. Find a couple of reliable installers, a few reliable cabinet suppliers, do the design yourself, order, have it delivered at the job site on the same day you have scheduled the installer and you are done. Typically a kitchen in a 2,500 sq ft house is around 3 hours install There is a lot of competition, so you have to try and be the best at what you are doing.

There is only love in fine woodworking, no money.

 

[Skymaster]

Absolutely

 

[Sourwould]

Honestly, I'm not really interested in fine woodworking. I make joints with biscuits and my favorite wood is MDF.

I was talking about transition on the business side of things, not really in the work itself. I can build things just fine. I was curious how people got into cabinets. Did you start as a carpenter? Did you get a job at a cabinet shop?

It seems to me to be hard to break into a type of work you don't already do. Even when I pick up side jobs, I can't seem to get the little cabinet jobs. People want me to move walls or doors. Or patch up boxing and siding.

I guess I'm currently a trimmer. I'd say half of my time is spent doing base, casing, door installs, etc. One thing I see with my boss (which I don't want to do), is having no specialization. He's a generalist. I'm seeing it hard to make money doing that. You have to own so much stuff to be ready to do so many types of jobs. It also seems to be hard to gain any efficiency when you're always doing different kinds of work. Granted, it's adaptable. You can pick up siding work when trim work is slow, etc.

 

[Sourwould]

It depends what you want to do. Unfortunately if it is making money, doing as little as possible yourself is where you will find success. Find a couple of reliable installers, a few reliable cabinet suppliers, do the design yourself, order, have it delivered at the job site on the same day you have scheduled the installer and you are done. Typically a kitchen in a 2,500 sq ft house is around 3 hours install There is a lot of competition, so you have to try and be the best at what you are doing.

There is only love in fine woodworking, no money.

Hm. This is what I was afraid I would hear.

 

[junquecol]

Want to make a small foutune in cabinet making, start with a large one. You will get there quicker than you think. For twenty+ years, I built custom cabinetry for local "Y's." Did a few jobs for others, but I found it better to get friend who did cabinets full time to build cabinets for customers. To me, finishing is the main selling point in custom cabinetry. Can you offer 24 months free financing, HD and Lowes do, and they are your competition.

 

[Graywolf]

I will not Start with a formula or any other advice. I feel that goals in this industry are fluid and you either adapt or perish. I will give one personal opinion, and it’s not anything personal against anyone. But I hate MDF with a passion. I’ve seen some great things built with it by people who never had to lift it. That aside, do as you please. Myself, I install for a large cabinet company and work with a couple designers who know a lot of people that get very excited about us working together. I’ve worked very hard to build a reputation of high standards and workmanship. I try my best to deliver that every job. I guess what trying to get at is this, exactly what and what scale are wanting to do? What kind of return are you expecting? Do you have or understand the marketing that you need to have success. What types of relationships have you built with builders designers, and alike. There is much more that could be covered in this, many more questions. I will share this, my background is I’ve worked general construction, framing, historical restoration, interior trim, military leadership, operations management, sales, commodities broker, designer, cabinet installer, but most of all I’m a student of the craft, and a student of life. So be direct and ask what you want to do.

 

[Willemjm]

I will not Start with a formula or any other advice. I feel that goals in this industry are fluid and you either adapt or perish. I will give one personal opinion, and it’s not anything personal against anyone. But I hate MDF with a passion. I’ve seen some great things built with it by people who never had to lift it. That aside, do as you please. Myself, I install for a large cabinet company and work with a couple designers who know a lot of people that get very excited about us working together. I’ve worked very hard to build a reputation of high standards and workmanship. I try my best to deliver that every job. I guess what trying to get at is this, exactly what and what scale are wanting to do? What kind of return are you expecting? Do you have or understand the marketing that you need to have success. What types of relationships have you built with builders designers, and alike. There is much more that could be covered in this, many more questions. I will share this, my background is I’ve worked general construction, framing, historical restoration, interior trim, military leadership, operations management, sales, commodities broker, designer, cabinet installer, but most of all I’m a student of the craft, and a student of life. So be direct and ask what you want to do.

Great info!
Do you work for yourself and buy from Marsh? Are you using one of their designers ?

 

[Sourwould]

I will not Start with a formula or any other advice. I feel that goals in this industry are fluid and you either adapt or perish. I will give one personal opinion, and it’s not anything personal against anyone. But I hate MDF with a passion. I’ve seen some great things built with it by people who never had to lift it. That aside, do as you please. Myself, I install for a large cabinet company and work with a couple designers who know a lot of people that get very excited about us working together. I’ve worked very hard to build a reputation of high standards and workmanship. I try my best to deliver that every job. I guess what trying to get at is this, exactly what and what scale are wanting to do? What kind of return are you expecting? Do you have or understand the marketing that you need to have success. What types of relationships have you built with builders designers, and alike. There is much more that could be covered in this, many more questions. I will share this, my background is I’ve worked general construction, framing, historical restoration, interior trim, military leadership, operations management, sales, commodities broker, designer, cabinet installer, but most of all I’m a student of the craft, and a student of life. So be direct and ask what you want to do.

Your comment on MDF reminds me of something someone said to me when I first started. "This is construction, everything is heavy."

I get the feeling that y'all thought I asked, "how do I get rich in cabinetry?" I'm not asking how I can change trades tomorrow, I'm trying to think about the next 5 years.

For scale, a one man operation and the scale that comes with that. Cabinets, built-ins, vanities, maybe doors and windows. Finer work. I'm looking down the road. I don't know if I want to be lugging lvls around and climbing a lot of ladders when I'm 50.

Maybe there's not enough meat on that bone. Honestly I'm not sure. The only cabinet guy I know in town is pretty big, does all sorts of millwork and probably has 10 or more employees. I haven't really met anyone smaller that made it.

Return? Not sure. If I could make 50 a year personally, I'd be very happy. If I could make what I make now and have a more enjoyable day to day, I'd probably still be happy.

I don't know about marketing, honestly. I've worked mostly for small scale contractors who get everything word of mouth. When I was framing, the owner marketed the houses by apparently blatantly lying. Haha. Building I find natural, but not so much marketing and business. I spend my time doing one and not the other

I've found it difficult to make much connection with the builders I've met at work. We mainly work directly with homeowners. The builders we've worked with seem to hire us begrudgingly to fix things other subs have messed up. They're not shy about that or quiet about their annoyance at our cost. Not much interest in having anything but dirt cheap labor. This certainly hasn't made me eager to build a relationship. I've only been in durham for a couple years, so I haven't met too many.

I'm the second man on a two man crew. We used to have laborers, but it's just been two for about a year. I look pretty young, so I think I come of as kind of a helper/laborer type to clients and builders.

 

[Oka]

Taylor, I started out building picture frames then went into making musical instruments. That was easy since I played the instruments I made, Spent a number of years playing in the symphony. Finally, after 20 or so years ended up in Construction mgmt. I really love building anything always have, like Graywolf, I am student of life. Every day I learn a new trick, learned a bunch here.

The best business advice you can get is 1st understand what the market you are in what the competition and standard is before launching into something. Then find the niche' you think you can get a foothold and go for it. Business takes 2-5 years before you will be known enough to start getting the calls. I recommend setting your standards high, be ethical, do not work with people because you need the money. Remember when you have that kind of mind set you end up with low lifes that will slow pay or no pay. My dad said "it is always better to be broke and fishing than working for nothing". Hope that helps.

 

[Graywolf]

Great info!
Do you work for yourself and buy from Marsh? Are you using one of their designers ?

I’m an independent contractor hired by Marsh Kitchens to work with a pair of designers. They are both very good and are CKD certified. They both do more work then I can do and there are other installers. There is a lot of production work that I do not see. One of these designers has as many as nine or ten projects running a day. She works real hard, and that’s a lot field measures, appointments with clients, and long days. She also has the more complex projects as well as some of the more challenging projects. That’s my area thats where I get to work. I get the customers with high expectations and demands. My job is not only to present myself as a confident professional but to deliver a product clean complete and in a timely manor. I’d have to say that our biggest problem in most cases is product issues by miss handling by delivery or sometimes it was packed damaged. It happens. So in that managing customer expectations in that process is a big part of it. Even with it expressed in the contract and oh yeah I get a full copy of the contract with the drawings, educating the customer that the company will stand behind the product and what the warranty really means. It’s challenging, it’s fun, it’s where this journey has taken me.

 

[Graywolf]

Your comment on MDF reminds me of something someone said to me when I first started. "This is construction, everything is heavy."

I get the feeling that y'all thought I asked, "how do I get rich in cabinetry?" I'm not asking how I can change trades tomorrow, I'm trying to think about the next 5 years.

For scale, a one man operation and the scale that comes with that. Cabinets, built-ins, vanities, maybe doors and windows. Finer work. I'm looking down the road. I don't know if I want to be lugging lvls around and climbing a lot of ladders when I'm 50.

Maybe there's not enough meat on that bone. Honestly I'm not sure. The only cabinet guy I know in town is pretty big, does all sorts of millwork and probably has 10 or more employees. I haven't really met anyone smaller that made it.

Return? Not sure. If I could make 50 a year personally, I'd be very happy. If I could make what I make now and have a more enjoyable day to day, I'd probably still be happy.

I don't know about marketing, honestly. I've worked mostly for small scale contractors who get everything word of mouth. When I was framing, the owner marketed the houses by apparently blatantly lying. Haha. Building I find natural, but not so much marketing and business. I spend my time doing one and not the other

I've found it difficult to make much connection with the builders I've met at work. We mainly work directly with homeowners. The builders we've worked with seem to hire us begrudgingly to fix things other subs have messed up. They're not shy about that or quiet about their annoyance at our cost. Not much interest in having anything but dirt cheap labor. This certainly hasn't made me eager to build a relationship. I've only been in durham for a couple years, so I haven't met too many.

I'm the second man on a two man crew. We used to have laborers, but it's just been two for about a year. I look pretty young, so I think I come of as kind of a helper/laborer type to clients and builders.

Taylor, thanks for the info, I’m going to digest a little before responding.

 

[Willemjm]

I’m an independent contractor hired by Marsh Kitchens to work with a pair of designers. They are both very good and are CKD certified. They both do more work then I can do and there are other installers. There is a lot of production work that I do not see. One of these designers has as many as nine or ten projects running a day. She works real hard, and that’s a lot field measures, appointments with clients, and long days. She also has the more complex projects as well as some of the more challenging projects. That’s my area thats where I get to work. I get the customers with high expectations and demands. My job is not only to present myself as a confident professional but to deliver a product clean complete and in a timely manor. I’d have to say that our biggest problem in most cases is product issues by miss handling by delivery or sometimes it was packed damaged. It happens. So in that managing customer expectations in that process is a big part of it. Even with it expressed in the contract and oh yeah I get a full copy of the contract with the drawings, educating the customer that the company will stand behind the product and what the warranty really means. It’s challenging, it’s fun, it’s where this journey has taken me.

Thanks, good info. I currently have two installers who do pretty good work, plus one designer who is also the main sales guy. We are all independent, but we do the business side, (buying, quotes, invoicing and payment) through my registered business. I have contacted Marsh, but not sure if they will be willing to sell to me at wholesale prices. Waiting for Terry. To call me back next week.

That was why I had so many questions, thanks for the info.

 

[Skymaster]

Just IMHO NFW with mdf. If your reasoning is in cheap material you can sell for higher dollars I can only say your are starting off in the wrong direction. Way too heavy too easily damaged and unless you have all the cnc and other equipment to mfg it not good choice. Start with good material,plywood,hardware such as blum, good finishing.Then you are presenting a higher value project and believe me customers will know.You want a reputation of doing high quality work and high quality products.

 

[Graywolf]

Thanks, good info. I currently have two installers who do pretty good work, plus one designer who is also the main sales guy. We are all independent, but we do the business side, (buying, quotes, invoicing and payment) through my registered business. I have contacted Marsh, but not sure if they will be willing to sell to me at wholesale prices. Waiting for Terry. To call me back next week.

That was why I had so many questions, thanks for the info.

That’s not a problem, at one time there was a franchise of Marsh Kitchens of Raleigh, I know of nothing down your way. Terry is a good guy, I haven’t seen him in a while. We have been busier than one armed paper hangers around here.

 

[Sourwould]

Just IMHO NFW with mdf. If your reasoning is in cheap material you can sell for higher dollars I can only say your are starting off in the wrong direction. Way too heavy too easily damaged and unless you have all the cnc and other equipment to mfg it not good choice. Start with good material,plywood,hardware such as blum, good finishing.Then you are presenting a higher value project and believe me customers will know.You want a reputation of doing high quality work and high quality products.

What does nfw stand for?

I prefer mdf to plywood because it's flatter, more consistently sized, paints nicely, and very stable. For personal projects I use moisture resistant mdf and baltic birch. They're about the same price per sheet where I get it. The mr mdf might be a little more expensive, but is a larger sheet.

The weight is definitely a downside. As far as damage, if someone is carrying furniture or something and runs into a cabinet, it's going to dent with either material.

I think plywood would last way longer in a scenario like water damage. I see that all the time with osb vs cdx.

I don't think I'd want to use mr mdf in a small bathroom.

I don't think you can really say one is cheap and nasty and the other is perfect. They're just different.

I defer to y'all's experience......but, I also think mdf has a bad rap in the states. Seems like the material of choice in europe (from what I see on the internet at least).

 

[Sourwould]

I'd also like to get y'all's opinions on things like drawer and door fronts for ikea cabinets. Seems like a good small cottage industry. I see a lot of this in europe on the internet, but not so much here.