Mounting upper cabinents via top and bottom recess

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Durnik

New User
Bob
To all,

Saw this on "This Old House", they mounted upper cabinets by screwing through the top and bottom recess (the 0.75 inch recess at the top and bottom of the cabinet). Just wanted to know if anyone has done this and whether it's a good idea? I assume if you pre-drill you won't split the wood. I have purchased the GRK #8 2.75" screws so I'd get at least 1.5" inch worth of travel into the stud so I'd think they'd have the holding power there. I like the idea of not having any screws showing in the cabinet (they're solid back with no visible nailer).

Appreciate any feedback,

Bob H
<AKA Durnik>
 

junquecol

Bruce
Senior User
Bottom screws carry the weight of cabinet, and uppers keep it from pulling off wall. All should be good.
 

chris_goris

Chris
Senior User
To all,

Saw this on "This Old House", they mounted upper cabinets by screwing through the top and bottom recess (the 0.75 inch recess at the top and bottom of the cabinet). Just wanted to know if anyone has done this and whether it's a good idea? I assume if you pre-drill you won't split the wood. I have purchased the GRK #8 2.75" screws so I'd get at least 1.5" inch worth of travel into the stud so I'd think they'd have the holding power there. I like the idea of not having any screws showing in the cabinet (they're solid back with no visible nailer).

Appreciate any feedback,

Bob H
<AKA Durnik>

With todays cabinet manufacturing methods and materials, it is hard to generalize if that method is sufficient or not. Many of todays purchased cabinets are made of sub par materials (structurally) and many of the joinery techniques are pretty bad too. There are lots of "do it your self" flat pack cabinets you can buy that personally, I would never hang on a wall, no matter how they are anchored, not to mention, loading them up with canned goods and dishes!. Cabinets I hang on walls have a minimum 3/4 x 2 cleat (normally soft maple) that is screwed and glued to the bottom side of the upper cabinet shelf as well as one at the top attatched the same way to the top of the cabinet (visible inside) all the load is then transferred from that cleat to the upper and lower cabinet boxes via a dado in the side of it. I also attach them to studs with 4" long screws, 2 per cleat , per stud.
 

Skymaster

New User
Jack
Agree with above however remember the screws on the bottom will be VERY VISIBLE. I no longer build cleats but have gone to a 1/2 plywood back which allows full strength and solid attachment when screwed thru to studs, also allows for a tad more interior space
 

Durnik

New User
Bob
To all,

They're 1/2" plywood cabinets so I think I'd have the strength with the GRK screws with the washer head on them. Just a quick question, maybe because I'm 6'1", but I don't see how the screws on the bottom would be highly visible unless you're a very short person.

Just a question

My thanks for all the advice and comments,

Bob H
<aka Durnik>
 

redknife

Chris
Corporate Member
Re: Screws driven in bottom cabinet to stud visible?
I'd think it would depend on your design and whether you sit in the area. I'm sitting in the room next to our kitchen (open design) and I can see the bottom of the cabinets. If you're only standing then sure, they would be hard to see (IMHO).
 

JohnW

New User
John
+1 for 1/2" ply back. Adds strength, helps squareness and screws can be located anywhere necessary.
 

Dave Richards

Dave
Senior User
another option, if you don't mind seeing screws inside the cabinet (they'd be hidden when the cabinet is full, anyway) might be to make the back as the French cleat like Michael Pekovich did for a tool cabinet he made for his shop. He divided the back panel with a bevel cut with the upper portion attached to the case and the bottom portion attached to the wall. Seems like a slick idea to me.
 

CrealBilly

New User
Jeff
I like continuous width french cleats myself. Its much easier to level a cleat than a cabinet. They are pretty easy to make by just pushing a single board through the table saw. I shot for 45 degrees.

Here is a pic explaining them.

frnchcletdiag400x264.jpg


As you can see french cleats can be strong also.

e950116118a02d0e594bc0b9c11cb634.jpg


Support your local musicians
 
Last edited:

chris_goris

Chris
Senior User
I like continuous width french cleats myself. Its much easier to level a cleat than a cabinet. They are pretty easy to make by just pushing a single board through the table saw. I shot for 45 degrees.

Here is a pic explaining them.

frnchcletdiag400x264.jpg


As you can see french cleats can be strong also.

e950116118a02d0e594bc0b9c11cb634.jpg


Support your local musicians

There is no doubt a french cleat is the strongest and easist method for hanging something on a wall but they cant really be used for kitchen cabinetry. they simply use up too much interior space. If you have a 12" deep overall cabinet, by the time you subtract a faceframe, the cleat ant the inner false backer, you only have a little over 10" inside, not big enough for a dinner plate......
 

CrealBilly

New User
Jeff
There is no doubt a french cleat is the strongest and easist method for hanging something on a wall but they cant really be used for kitchen cabinetry. they simply use up too much interior space. If you have a 12" deep overall cabinet, by the time you subtract a faceframe, the cleat ant the inner false backer, you only have a little over 10" inside, not big enough for a dinner plate......
Yeah I guess like anything else a little design pre-planning helps doesn't it? French cleats are not the answer to every wall hanging problem but they sure are strong and handy.

Support your local musicians
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Staff member
Corporate Member
Another way to hide screws is how the professionals do. Self adhesive stickers to cover the countersunk screws in melamine white or wood-grain colors. Tapcon also makes a countersunk screw in white for shelf standards that would be good for mounting a painted white frame. Although it is made for concrete, it should do very well in a wood stud if counter-bored.
 

Bob Carreiro

New User
Bob
Gotta respectfully disagree with Chris. Working as one of 3 or 4 installers (each with 1 helper), we replaced kitchen and bath cabs in over 300 condo units in Wilmington. They were 1/2" PB, including backs, w/hardwood FF's. We all used 4, 2-1/2" washerhead screws w/painted heads through the 3/4" reveals top/bottom (sometimes only 2 in narrower cabs), and also screwed FF's together with 3, 3" flathead screws with small heads in each FF styles left and right. Even with these low quality cabs, screwing to the wall studs, even through a weak 3/4" lip of PB (which would crush often) is not weak link. It is the attachment/quality method of how the backs are fastened to the box sides. It is the cab sides that support the cab's weight. Screw shear strength or "pull-out" is not threatened buy the weight, it is trumped by cab construction.
 

chris_goris

Chris
Senior User
Gotta respectfully disagree with Chris. Working as one of 3 or 4 installers (each with 1 helper), we replaced kitchen and bath cabs in over 300 condo units in Wilmington. They were 1/2" PB, including backs, w/hardwood FF's. We all used 4, 2-1/2" washerhead screws w/painted heads through the 3/4" reveals top/bottom (sometimes only 2 in narrower cabs), and also screwed FF's together with 3, 3" flathead screws with small heads in each FF styles left and right. Even with these low quality cabs, screwing to the wall studs, even through a weak 3/4" lip of PB (which would crush often) is not weak link. It is the attachment/quality method of how the backs are fastened to the box sides. It is the cab sides that support the cab's weight. Screw shear strength or "pull-out" is not threatened buy the weight, it is trumped by cab construction.


Bob,
Youre not disagreeing with me. I couldnt agree more. I never rely on the backing sheeting to hold anything up (no matter how thick you make it). To me the backing is merely a cover so you cant see the wall. all my weight is carried throught the cleats and top /bottom shelves dadoed to the sides.
 

CrealBilly

New User
Jeff
Gotta respectfully disagree with Chris. Working as one of 3 or 4 installers (each with 1 helper), we replaced kitchen and bath cabs in over 300 condo units in Wilmington. They were 1/2" PB, including backs, w/hardwood FF's. We all used 4, 2-1/2" washerhead screws w/painted heads through the 3/4" reveals top/bottom (sometimes only 2 in narrower cabs), and also screwed FF's together with 3, 3" flathead screws with small heads in each FF styles left and right. Even with these low quality cabs, screwing to the wall studs, even through a weak 3/4" lip of PB (which would crush often) is not weak link. It is the attachment/quality method of how the backs are fastened to the box sides. It is the cab sides that support the cab's weight. Screw shear strength or "pull-out" is not threatened buy the weight, it is trumped by cab construction.

Well the root of the problem is crappy cabinet medium. I mean particle board furniture is bottom end junk to begin with... And yeah if I were in that situation the only choice is to screw through the reveals and hope for the best

Support your local musicians
 
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Bob Carreiro

New User
Bob
Rereading my former post and the OP's concern... my aim was to emphasize that cab construction typically has more impact on keeping the cabinets safely attatched to the wall than screw criteria alone, i.e., length, amount, location, etc.
 

Skymaster

New User
Jack
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN "construction" is the operative word. I see a SEVERE lack of quality construction,and materials in today's stock off the shelf "cabinets?"
 

Bob Carreiro

New User
Bob
OK, while I'm here... adding to fire(???) or not... regarding partical board cabs and their safety/ability to be safely secured to the wall. Before revealing some "breach of cabinetmaker fidelity", let me emphatically state that I believe that solid wood and/or plywood make cabinetry stronger and able to withstand more abuse that it's PB siblings! However, I also believe there is absolutely nothing "wrong" with PB cabs, or that they are out of place in the cabinetry world! THERE, I'VE SAID IT (Phew... that was hard to do!). Should sink cabs be made with it? Absolutely not! Ply panels should also surround dishwashers. Neither should PB be used for drawer boxes or FF's, etc. But WHY use ply panels for sides, decks, backs, shelves, etc., when PB properly used and clad with appropriate facing, whether wood, malimine, or paper? Appropriately used, PB will last as long as its plywood siblings.

Back in 2011 or 12, I worked in a small shop (3-5 peeps) and was driving to a job site with the boss/owner (rarely did he ever do this) to complete an install - adjust doors/drawers, install hardware, etc. We got to talking about cab quality. He had notedly lost respect for me that day when I revealed to him - a man who designed and made "quality plywood kichens" for a living - that I saw nothing wrong with PB cabs! Like I just previously posted, it has less to do with the PB and MORE to do with how it is designed into construction, and the means used to fasten it.
 

Skymaster

New User
Jack
OK, while I'm here... adding to fire(???) or not... regarding partical board cabs and their safety/ability to be safely secured to the wall. Before revealing some "breach of cabinetmaker fidelity", let me emphatically state that I believe that solid wood and/or plywood make cabinetry stronger and able to withstand more abuse that it's PB siblings! However, I also believe there is absolutely nothing "wrong" with PB cabs, or that they are out of place in the cabinetry world! THERE, I'VE SAID IT (Phew... that was hard to do!). Should sink cabs be made with it? Absolutely not! Ply panels should also surround dishwashers. Neither should PB be used for drawer boxes or FF's, etc. But WHY use ply panels for sides, decks, backs, shelves, etc., when PB properly used and clad with appropriate facing, whether wood, malimine, or paper? Appropriately used, PB will last as long as its plywood siblings.

Back in 2011 or 12, I worked in a small shop (3-5 peeps) and was driving to a job site with the boss/owner (rarely did he ever do this) to complete an install - adjust doors/drawers, install hardware, etc. We got to talking about cab quality. He had notedly lost respect for me that day when I revealed to him - a man who designed and made "quality plywood kichens" for a living - that I saw nothing wrong with PB cabs! Like I just previously posted, it has less to do with the PB and MORE to do with how it is designed into construction, and the means used to fasten it.

IF you have STRONG back, and you can guarantee it will NEVER get wet enjoy. At 80+ lbs a sheet vs 45 ish for ply. prefinished ply my back votes ply :D:)
 
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