Mortise and Tenon

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danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
I often wonder why the full mortise and tenon is so rarely used or shown anywhere other than magazines. The short answer is probably that there are so many quicker ways to join a stile and rail. Oh well.

For my vote on precision and satisfaction, I'll take a well executed mortise and tenon joint with a coped bead over a well executed dovetail joint. This is not an effort to debate the merits of either joint its just a personal satisfaction point. I cut far more dovetailed joints than I do m/t joints. I have to pay closer attention when making door frames.

aug_23_07_026.jpg


Marking out the joint on the pieces takes some forethought. If you leave the stiles long, you will have something to tap on to get a tight fit apart. Looking at the stile above you'll see the extra length and the "offset rear shoulder. More glue surface of value. If removed like some folks do, it leaves the stile only to be glued to end grain. Not good.



aug_23_07_027.jpg


the inside corner is coped so the joint will not open like a miter would during seasonal changes


lid_desk_19_fb_067.jpg


Cutting and fitting by hand does take longer.

buttplate_and_tool_013.jpg


getting this kind of fit makes it worth the effort.

DSC07284.JPG









 

Hmerkle

Board of Directors, Development Director
Hank
Staff member
Corporate Member
I think there is a resistance to "seeing" joinery and perhaps that is why the blind mortise is more popular, dunno?

I noticed the through tenons on you shop doors on my last visit and I think there is an elegance to them plus the practicality you mentioned if you need to replace the door panels.

Perhaps this is a personal preference and not many people are aware that through tenons for doors are "acceptable" maybe you are starting a trend?!
 

tdukes

New User
Eddie
i often wonder why the full mortise and tenon is so rarely used or shown anywhere other than magazines. The short answer is probably that there are so many quicker ways to join a stile and rail. Oh well.

For my vote on precision and satisfaction, i'll take a well executed mortise and tenon joint with a coped bead over a well executed dovetail joint. This is not an effort to debate the merits of either joint its just a personal satisfaction point. I cut far more dovetailed joints than i do m/t joints. I have to pay closer attention when making door frames.

aug_23_07_026.jpg


marking out the joint on the pieces takes some forethought. If you leave the stiles long, you will have something to tap on to get a tight fit apart. Looking at the stile above you'll see the extra length and the "offset rear shoulder. More glue surface of value. If removed like some folks do, it leaves the stile only to be glued to end grain. Not good.



aug_23_07_027.jpg


the inside corner is coped so the joint will not open like a miter would during seasonal changes


lid_desk_19_fb_067.jpg


cutting and fitting by hand does take longer.

buttplate_and_tool_013.jpg


getting this kind of fit makes it worth the effort.

dsc07284.jpg










nice!!
 

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
I think there is a resistance to "seeing" joinery and perhaps that is why the blind mortise is more popular, dunno?

I noticed the through tenons on you shop doors on my last visit and I think there is an elegance to them plus the practicality you mentioned if you need to replace the door panels.

Perhaps this is a personal preference and not many people are aware that through tenons for doors are "acceptable" maybe you are starting a trend?!

Don't really know on that one but Durham Co and the surrounding area inspectors will not work with you on post and beam construction. I wanted to build a 2nd shop using a "hammer beam design" used in NH 220 years ago. I had the exact measurements and wanted only to duplicate the same structure.


This is the big brother of the building I hoped to build. No such luck. Had to find and engineer who would approve the design. Found one up in VA. To get the plans done and engineer approved would be 1500 dollars. What?
el.jpg



The same plan I had was used in another state with no engineer certificate. Here's the frame going in.

el3.jpg


They flew the bents in with the crane and pinned the bottom down. Then flew the roof assemblies from above and set in place

Now you ask: Who doesn't like tenons? Mortises? What's not to like?

I'm happy enough with my shop built with recycled materials but I was frustrated at the time because I had access to unlimited supplies of yellow pine and some oak was available from another sawyer for a very fair price. With a Woodmizer at the site it would have been labor intensive but doable.


shingles_4_.JPG


Had a chance to work with my younger son and show him a couple of things. He's woodworking down in Atlanta now so that worked out well. At 62 I was still draggin' a hose and clankin' a hammer. At 66 I just don't think I can do 10 squares of architectural shingle packs at 72lbs??

later


Vermont_Repairs_2013_059.jpg


My old childhood friend in front of his old house in Burlington Vt. My son got dirty on that job. Curt came down to Durham a little later and wired my shop for me. He's a licensed electrician and I do need some adult supervision with electrics.



Next_1_.JPG


So thinking it over maybe the road block on the post and beam work led to other good things.

 
Last edited:

Hmerkle

Board of Directors, Development Director
Hank
Staff member
Corporate Member
Don't really know on that one but Durham Co and the surrounding area inspectors will not work with you on post and beam construction. I wanted to build a 2nd shop using a "hammer beam design" used in NH 220 years ago. I had the exact measurements and wanted only to duplicate the same structure.


This is the big brother of the building I hoped to build. No such luck. Had to find and engineer who would approve the design. Found one up in VA. To get the plans done and engineer approved would be 1500 dollars. What?
el.jpg



The same plan I had was used in another state with no engineer certificate. Here's the frame going in.

el3.jpg


They flew the bents in with the crane and pinned the bottom down. Then flew the roof assemblies from above and set in place

Now you ask: Who doesn't like tenons? Mortises? What's not to like?

I'm happy enough with my shop built with recycled materials but I was frustrated at the time because I had access to unlimited supplies of yellow pine and some oak was available from another sawyer for a very fair price. With a Woodmizer at the site it would have been labor intensive but doable.




Had a chance to work with my younger son and show him a couple of things. He's woodworking down in Atlanta now so that worked out well. At 62 I was still draggin' a hose and clankin' a hammer. At 66 I just don't think I can do 10 squares of architectural shingle packs at 72lbs??
I think timber framing is sexy!
And that design is over an above!!
 

Bill Clemmons

Bill
Corporate Member
Dan, I love the old building you wanted to copy. I think the reason most of us don't do through tenons very often is that it takes a certain level of craftsmanship to get the "through" end to look good (tight). I did them on the sawhorses I recently built, and most of them could have been better. It takes practice and experience.
 

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
Dan, I love the old building you wanted to copy. I think the reason most of us don't do through tenons very often is that it takes a certain level of craftsmanship to get the "through" end to look good (tight). I did them on the sawhorses I recently built, and most of them could have been better. It takes practice and experience.

And some well placed wedges Bill


1-horses_build_006.JPG



1-horses_build_012.JPG




1-horses_build_009-001.JPG


Here you see the tenon with a center wedge to tighten the ouside shoulder. The most important part is really the face of the arm. If its tight all the way around the inside the vertical pieces won't move or rack. This is where I put a bit of time to ensure a good fit.
1-horses_build_001.JPG


The bridal joint on top is gravy​
 

SubGuy

Administrator
Zach
I don't know the answer to that question. I try to use them whenever it's appropriate. I do like wedge tenons. I also like tusk tenons. M&T are fun to make IMHO. Through or blind, miter or straight, Haunched or flat, I like them all.
 

David Justice

David
Corporate Member
I have done 2 projects that each had 4 through tenons. The first tenon on both projects looked not great and the other three came out really nice. The next time I do a project with them I am going to practice a few right before I start cutting the joints. I guess this is good advice for any hand cut joinery I do!
 

CDPeters

Master of None
Chris
I just finished 2 flat panel cabinet doors this past weekend with blind, haunched M&T's. The detail on the rails and stiles is a chamfer rather than a bead since LOML wanted a simple, non-dust-collecting Shaker style, and the mistake I made (now that I see how Dan does them :)) is that I mitered the chamfers and I should have coped them. Oh well, these are for laundry room cabinets, so when I get to the kitchen cabinets I will know to cope and not miter!

Anyway, I think the M&Ts make for a much better aligned/stronger joint than the standard cope and stick done with router bits.

Question for Dan: do you cope the rail or the stile? Edit: Nevermind, I see in the first picture you cope the rail. Dumb question if I had given a little thought to the geometry :cool:
 
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CDPeters

Master of None
Chris
Dan - on the rail, I assume you plow the panel groove first. A couple of questions (1) looks like the mortise/tenon thickness is the same as the panel groove, correct? And (2) how do you go about removing the material on the front side to form the offset rear shoulder to get a nice straight crisp mating on the face?

 

danmart77

Dan
Corporate Member
Dan - on the rail, I assume you plow the panel groove first. A couple of questions

(1) looks like the mortise/tenon thickness is the same as the panel groove, correct?

No the tenon is thicker than the channel for the raised panel. These were chopped mortises and they were all the way thru. This some crazy "sticking" on these doors. The thumbnail edge on the inside is bigger than the small thumbnail on the outer edge of the door.
doors_hung_b.jpg





(2) how do you go about removing the material on the front side to form the offset rear shoulder to get a nice straight crisp mating on the face?

There are others who go to great lengths to build jigs and fuss with their routers but I think its easier and quicker to just cut the cove detail off with a little left then take a dead straight board and clamp it on the edge line that you want and chisel it away. You will be done in no time. Again, this type of handwork is very quick when the tools are sharp, you have good lighting and you get focused.

If I had to do 20 doors all the same I'd make a jig but that's never happened.

Look in the Gallery at the desk album for more photos.

A contemporary method at the address below.

https://books.google.com/books?id=o...AT#v=onepage&q=lonnie bird candle box&f=false
 
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