Metal pole shop advice re trim insulate

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redknife

Chris
Corporate Member
We have an agreement on a house with a 25x70 metal outbuilding. About 50x25 is on a concrete pad with the remaining 20x25 as horse stalls.
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There is electric to the building (not enough, 40A - fixable).
It appears there was no effort to trim out or seal the building. Below are some pics that illustrate some of the gaps etc that lack flashing and also give a sense of construction. Pretty typical metal pole barn with metal sheeting, poles,purlins, girts. Rafters are not engineered to hold weight of drywall.
I intend to make the space conditioned. I am taking my garage minisplit and will likely also use dehumidifier.
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Lots of questions - you can choose any or all:
For those with similar: How have you sealed and insulated? I hear issues of rodents and bats without having the building trimmed and flashed. Air and moisture intrusion without some air barrier.

Would you leave the present sheathing and add trim/flashing? How to insulate subsequently without exterior sealed barrier re: rodent/air intrusion

Would you pull metal sheathing and add something like Tyvek-foam-plywood followed by re-sheathing (or pick your poison for sheathing method), fiberglass inside?
I've priced closed cell foam and it appears to be too expensive.

For the ceiling:
metal straps and specialty rolls sold for purpose?
Secure metal sheathing to ceiling and blow insulation above?

Do you know anybody that does this kind of work? I only find new building construction like Morton, or suppliers of products.

My hope is to get the shop up and running as soon as possible but given other transactional and move expenses, lower cost is better.
Thanks.
 

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KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
To me that looks like an ideal setup for a future shop. It might take some work to make it a super place to work, but it has great potential. Spray foam insulation might be what I'd be looking into with that setup. A good barn cat might be able to keep down the critter factor.

I personally think you've found a treasure that just needs some TLC to turn it into an ideal workshop. Start slow and fix the major issues first and you'll have a shop to be envied by all of us.
 

redknife

Chris
Corporate Member
So far so good on a July 28 close. I'll have to wait until current house sells to start the shop.
I am thinking about running the electric to the building first. Probably 100 amp. May go higher on the shop panel given desire for welding. House has 400 amp service, 200 ft away from shop. I may get an estimate for a meter and 200 a service at the shop. We'll see. I haven't mapped out outlets and lights yet but there will be plenty when the time comes.

For insulation, I am leaning toward closed cell spray foam 2" all around, prob diy in stages. Roof first.
After foam, probably white vinyl clad fiberglass designed for metal buildings to achieve the desired R value on the roof and walls.
The underside of the roof finish surface would stay with the white fiberglass vinyl clad which is fire rated.
Walls probably plywood painted white after some stick framing.
I talked with our hvac guy and we would be probably looking at 3 head minisplit vs. heat pump. He hasn't done site eval so details could change. Also, if spray foaming the underside roof + walls need to consider an ERV for ventilation since it will be tight.

I was thinking that if I can get the insulation and electric in place, I could move in my machinery +- dehumidifier until the hvac is installed later.

These were just musings and thoughts, but I would welcome suggestions or redirects.
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
I'm in a similar boat - need to sell the old place before I can afford to do everything I want to the new. Started working on the shop though. If for no other reason than to have a place to put things.

Sounds like you've got a lot of planning done. Of course everything will change once you actually start doing it, but you seem to have a good plan to get started.

Consider using T1-11 instead of plywood (well I guess that really is plywood). The Wood Whisperer did so in his new shop and very much liked the result. Check his website for more info. I might just use that on the bottom 4 feet of the walls and pegboard on the upper 4 feet. The office area will be all T1-11. My old shop had 1/2" ply on the bottom and pegboard on the top. I painted the bottom green and the top a yellowish color. (matched my cabinets.) Would probably stain the T1-11 if I go that route.

I plan to paint the sub-floor (OSB) this time as a clear coat made the OSB act like camouflage and hide anything small dropped on it in the old shop. I special ordered the sub-floor from HD. It is DriCore R+ Insulated foam (not the hard plastic stuff) with OSB T&G 2x2' squares. Consider using that over the concrete - your feet and ankles will thank you and it does have a small (R3) rating. It's a little less than $2 square foot and is a floating sub-floor. There will probably be pictures of it going down soon in my "new shop" thread.
 

redknife

Chris
Corporate Member
Well still planning. Looking like a long deliberate process rather than a big bang rehab and finish. One point I'm wondering about is whether to finish the whole 25x50 space vs partial. Hvac install cost will be substantial for full space. 3 minisplits vs conventional heat pump (rough calc by hvac guy)- ouch. Ceiling height is 12.5 on average. Also larger space more electric runs, lights, insulation. Maybe leave the garage section unconditioned yielding about 30x25? Maybe lower ceiling. If I remove the small garage door I could go about 36 shop conditioned 14 garage unconditioned.
Any bright ideas on dividing space to partial vs whole conditioning?
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
One question is do you actually need the garage space. If so, that should enter into your planning decision.
 

redknife

Chris
Corporate Member
One question is do you actually need the garage space. If so, that should enter into your planning decision.
Thats a good point for reflection. One bay would be nice for tractor, attachments, property mgmt tools, etc. We don't currently need the second bay. The bays are so close together that dividing between them would be a nuisance, while maintaining a leaky garage door for the conditioned space. Thats why I'm considering closing off the small door.

The saying is that you never build your shop big enough, but that is all at a cost. Overbuilding relative to need or comfort by definition shifts overall resources to the shop. More money toward the shop is less money for other things or for the kids. It is hard for me to figure out if: 50x25 (1250 sq ft) conditioned is more than needed vs awesome, 30x25 (750 sq ft) is unnecessarily constrained or just fine.

The main difference between the plans would be time to shop completion and startup costs. In the meantime I'll be in the new house basement, ~ 15x20.
Welcome any perspectives or thoughts. I realize my questions are non-specific and I have to decide based on a number of factors. Nonetheless it helps to chew through things with the group.
 

Jim M.

Woody
Corporate Member
Chris if it were me, I'd wall off the large bay door shop (garage space) from the workshop; remove the small door and put in a large window in its place for natural light. Then in between the two shops I'd put in a set of sliding doors. This was it give you a smaller area to condition, but still leaves it available for future use a part of the workshop without much trouble. I did something similar in my new shop. For various reasons I wanted an area separate from the main shop. I used a set of 4'×9.5' sliding barn doors between the two areas giving me an opening of 8'x9' when needed and it has worked out well.
 

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redknife

Chris
Corporate Member
I need help, probably from a contractor, about how to comply with current Nc energy code for the existing concrete slab on grade.

I spoke with the building inspector for Davie County. he said that to make the existing metal pole barn a conditioned space, I'd need to fully comply with current NC residential energy code. R38 attic, R13 wall, air sealing, etc.

The kicker is that there is a requirement for R-10 rigid insulation on the exterior of the slab starting from the top of slab to a depth of 24". The code officer indicated I would have to comply with this expectation and at the time I didn't know that portion of the energy code.

Here is some of the relevant code text:
402.2.8 Slab-on-grade floors. Slab-on-grade floorswith a floor surface less than 12 inches (305 mm)below grade shall be insulated in accordance withTable 402.1.1. The top edge of the insulationinstalled between the exterior wall and the edge ofthe interior slab shall be permitted to be cut at a 45-degree (0.79 rad) angle away from the exterior wall.Slab edge insulation shall have 2‖ termite inspectiongap consistent with Appendix 1.C of this code.

The R-10 is from table 402.1.1

Based on a number of sources and the building inspector, I gather I have to dig down 24" around the slab and place r10 foam. Has anyone done this in a retrofit? Can you give details of how you did it? For instance, there would be some foam above ground; how should that be covered? How should I anchor the foam? The code language does not specifically address such details. Any other thoughts?
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
Seems excessive to me for an out-building just to be able to add conditioning to the space, but then local laws and requirements are what matter. Is there any possibility to classify it as a "farm building" and have it treated differently. It seems that it is already being planned as multi-use.
 

Jim M.

Woody
Corporate Member
It seems rather a stringent code for an outbuilding. Is he confusing the conditioned space as a livable space and not a work space. What about just improve the building without putting the heat and air, you could add later as a work around, after the inspection.
 

redknife

Chris
Corporate Member
I agree with both of you. We were pretty clear on the phone as to the nature of the space and we talked for a while. If this were to be habitable space, I would apparently have to parcel out the property. They have had problems in the past with people permitting some structure and the mechanicals subsequently placing a prefab home. Thus, habitable space means parceling out the land. Occupiable, conditioned space buys me the full energy code but no parcel. They deem this an "accessory structure upfit".

Like you say, Jim, I'll have to think about the overall strategy and whether there is a way to accomplish this with less $. I'll look in to the farm building exemption as it applies to our county and property.

FWIW, I found a link that has a diagram of the required foam board vertically on the exterior of slab on grade. Again, he specifically indicated this would be required. https://basc.pnnl.gov/resource-guid...-existing-foundation-walls#quicktabs-guides=1
Work would involve a 24" deep dig x 2 x 50 ft x 25 ft R-10 foam, flashing, termite treatment, fill. Not the end of the world but still a fair amount of work.

eta: here is another discussion and diagram (slab near bottom) about the code from Fine Homebuilding: http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2014/07/09/insulating-a-slab-on-grade
 
Last edited:

CrealBilly

New User
Jeff
I need help, probably from a contractor, about how to comply with current Nc energy code for the existing concrete slab on grade.

I spoke with the building inspector for Davie County. he said that to make the existing metal pole barn a conditioned space, I'd need to fully comply with current NC residential energy code. R38 attic, R13 wall, air sealing, etc.

The kicker is that there is a requirement for R-10 rigid insulation on the exterior of the slab starting from the top of slab to a depth of 24". The code officer indicated I would have to comply with this expectation and at the time I didn't know that portion of the energy code.

Here is some of the relevant code text:
402.2.8 Slab-on-grade floors. Slab-on-grade floorswith a floor surface less than 12 inches (305 mm)below grade shall be insulated in accordance withTable 402.1.1. The top edge of the insulationinstalled between the exterior wall and the edge ofthe interior slab shall be permitted to be cut at a 45-degree (0.79 rad) angle away from the exterior wall.Slab edge insulation shall have 2‖ termite inspectiongap consistent with Appendix 1.C of this code.

The R-10 is from table 402.1.1

Based on a number of sources and the building inspector, I gather I have to dig down 24" around the slab and place r10 foam. Has anyone done this in a retrofit? Can you give details of how you did it? For instance, there would be some foam above ground; how should that be covered? How should I anchor the foam? The code language does not specifically address such details. Any other thoughts?

Glad I moved away from "codes"... If it we're me I would stand up 2x6 rough cut walls and 2 x 10 rough cut rafters. Insulate, rough in electrical and cover with rough cut 1 by's and call it done... So basically just frame from the inside.

It's your freaking property why does the government have the right to tell you how and to what code you must build too? I never got that... It's personal property (yours) not theirs. I'm glad I moved away from that mess.
 

redknife

Chris
Corporate Member
Glad I moved away from "codes"... If it we're me I would stand up 2x6 rough cut walls and 2 x 10 rough cut rafters. Insulate, rough in electrical and cover with rough cut 1 by's and call it done... So basically just frame from the inside.

It's your freaking property why does the government have the right to tell you how and to what code you must build too? I never got that... It's personal property (yours) not theirs. I'm glad I moved away from that mess.

Yeah man. When we decided on the place, I was thinking about work like you described. Didn't know the expectations til after. This will be like building a residential house since the energy codes prescribe so much of the design. This is no Creal Springs, for better or worse.
 
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