Lie Nielsen Bench Planes are they worth it?

[Wilsoncb]

I have no doubt LN planes are really good, but I have a little problem with their pricing. For example, a no. 1 is $285. A no. 8 is $550. They both have the same number of components, obviously the bigger plane has slightly bigger components but the biggest difference is the amount of steel. Volume/setup time is probably the next biggest factor. I would guess #4-8 use the same handle & knob and #6-8 use the same iron/frog etc.

*** Skip to the bottom if you don’t want to nerd out on numbers ***

The #1 is 1.35 lbs. while the #8 is 10 lbs. So that’s $265 for 8.65 lbs of steel, or $30.63 per pound. Tool steel is between $4-6 per pound. Humm.

So now compare the #1 at 1.35 lbs $285 to the #2 at 3.25 lbs. $315 a 1.9 lb.-$30 difference, or $15.79 per pound. Comparing the #2 to the #3 at 3.5 lbs. $345 it’s a $30 different again for only 0.25 pounds, or $120 per pound!

#4 - $375 + $30
#5 - $385 + $10 (probably sell more of these than any other size)
#6 - $475 + $90
#7 - $500 + $25

Good used Stanley planes can easily be found between $40-150. You can get a motorized bench top jointer for about the same as a #5. The least expensive 6” stand alone 1 hp jointer is around $1000 now days. Don’t get me wrong I love quality tools, but there a big enough gap between LN and Stanley to justify it, or is it just a case of I got the money and I can’t take it with me, so why not?

 

[Claus]

I have a set of planes from various sources, including members of this forum. Most were in the Stanley price range you mentioned and I’m very satisfied with all of them. I considered getting some LN’s but found more than adequate alternatives without the big price tag.

However- Taking Schwarz’s advice, I did get a LN low angle block plane. The idea was that this is a precision tool for specific uses and for me it was worth the money. A “sure thing” if you will. Worked great right out of the box and still does.

 

[Drew]

I have no doubt LN planes are really good, but I have a little problem with their pricing. For example, a no. 1 is $285. A no. 8 is $550. They both have the same number of components, obviously the bigger plane has slightly bigger components but the biggest difference is the amount of steel. Volume/setup time is probably the next biggest factor. I would guess #4-8 use the same handle & knob and #6-8 use the same iron/frog etc.

*** Skip to the bottom if you don’t want to nerd out on numbers ***

The #1 is 1.35 lbs. while the #8 is 10 lbs. So that’s $265 for 8.65 lbs of steel, or $30.63 per pound. Tool steel is between $4-6 per pound. Humm.

So now compare the #1 at 1.35 lbs $285 to the #2 at 3.25 lbs. $315 a 1.9 lb.-$30 difference, or $15.79 per pound. Comparing the #2 to the #3 at 3.5 lbs. $345 it’s a $30 different again for only 0.25 pounds, or $120 per pound!

#4 - $375 + $30
#5 - $385 + $10 (probably sell more of these than any other size)
#6 - $475 + $90
#7 - $500 + $25

Good used Stanley planes can easily be found between $40-150. You can get a motorized bench top jointer for about the same as a #5. The least expensive 6” stand alone 1 hp jointer is around $1000 now days. Don’t get me wrong I love quality tools, but there a big enough gap between LN and Stanley to justify it, or is it just a case of I got the money and I can’t take it with me, so why not?

You pay for utility, the value you gain, not weight or component costs.

 

[Mark Fogleman]

One reason someone would choose LN is almost zero depreciation and in discontinued tools, guaranteed appreciation.A very good reason for the narrow cost difference between the smallest and the longest benchplane is the work is the same. The materials are the cheapest part. I own their 102 Bronze blockplane and it is a well-built precision tool. I don't need a whole complement of handplanes...especially a #1?

 

[charlessenf]

I suppose that, if one has to ask that question, the answer would be "no."

We have a Log Home operation down the road from us where I've been collecting chips of Pine (I think. Never asked for details. "beggers can't be choosers") that are hand hewn from twelve foot long finished tongue and groove boards that look to be 2" x 6" nominal.

People who might own five hundred dollar planes; thousand dollar electronic toilets and such, pay (indirectly) a strong young fellow market rates to straddle a 'BIN' (is it?) of these boards and have at their perfectly smooth exterior side with a 16" (or so) hand adze until they resemble hand hewn boards - so their custom built Log Cabin might appear 'authentic?'


So, Yes and no!

 

[jlimey]

LN planes are not cheap, as you point out. If they are out of someone’s budget they shouldn’t fret as a well tuned older Stanley can perform well. The dilemma comes when someone can afford the LN but could also spend that money elsewhere which is your question. I am assuming that Elon Musk would buy whichever he preferred, regardless of price.

I think buying a premium plane is most helpful for someone without much experience with hand planes and no access to someone who can help them set up an older plane. Why is that? A LN will work well with a quick honing and you will know how a plane should work. An older Stanley may have issues that would be frustrating to a new user and they may just give up on hand planes altogether.

As someone who may or may not have a plane problem, I think that if you don’t derive extra pleasure from using a beautiful tool and you can get an old Stanley to work for you, the extra money for the LN is likely not worth it.

I do think trying to justify or critique LN pricing by weight ignores the extra milling involved . A #8 has seven times the sole to grind flat than a one.

If you can try a LN compared to your current plane, that would help you decide.

 

[creasman]

I'm not sure you can equate cost to weight when it comes to planes. Most of the cost is in the tooling and finishing that comes after the initial casting is made. I recently listened to a presentation by Thomas Lie-Nielsen talking about how he got started, the current state of his business and where it's going. Covid really set him back, but things are looking brighter.

I'll make a few points/observations...

• I'm not sure why Stanley ever bothered with producing the #1 (or why Lie-Nielsen makes these). They're too small to be practical. Stanley never sold a lot of these. That's why they're so pricey today. Collectors want one to complete their set.
• If you only have one bench plane, then a #5 is a good choice. It's small enough to be used as a smoother and long enough to do a decent job as a jointer. If you can afford two planes, then a #4 and #7 are good choices.
• At the other end the Stanley #8 is bigger than most woodworking hobbyists would ever need.
• Stanley made two basic types of planes -- the Bedrock and Bailey series. The Stanley Bailey planes are what you most frequently find on the used market. The Bedrock were premium planes. The numbers are similar. For example, a #4 Stanley Bailey and #604 Stanley Bedrock are the same size. The difference is in how the frog holds the iron. Used Bedrock planes are more expensive than the Bailey's. All Lie-Nielsen bench planes follow the Bedrock design.
• Lie-Nielsen offers some of their planes with bronze bodies. Bronze is heavier and thus these planes offer better momentum for a smoother cut. Also, bronze doesn't rust. I have the LN bronze #4 and absolutely love it.
• Lie-Nielsen has switched to making their iron plane bodies from ductile iron. This increases the strength. LN guarantees them not to break.
• LN planes are the best of the best. The fit and finish is hard to find anywhere else. Much of this work is done by hand and eye. The LN planes come ready to use right out of the box.
• A big difference is the plane iron. LN irons are thicker with a heavy chip breaker. This reduces chatter and leaves a smoother cut. You can buy thicker irons for Bedrock planes, but it gets harder to fit these into the Bailey's.
• Almost any plane will give you a smooth cut once it's properly tuned and sharpened. A sharp, properly tuned Stanley Bailey will out perform a dull LN plane.

I had no idea I was going to ramble that much. The shop is a bit chilly so I'm doing the next best thing and spending time on the forum. Hope something in this is useful.

 

[Charlie Buchanan]

The LN #62 low angle jack is worth the price to me. Had it maybe 20 years. Very useful for many bench plane uses and quite good as a shooting plane.

 

[cyclopentadiene]

I have a LN block plane and two Stanley equivalents tuned but with the original blades. The LN stays sharp 2-3 times longer and is my go to if all are sharp. I have a #4 Stanley with a hock blade and it holds an edge about the same as the LN block plane. Cost wise the Stanley + hock blade is about 50% of the cost of a LN. Would I go LN for everything, No but I had a gift certificate for service at work that I used for my unit. It serves as a reminder of my 20 year service award so yes it was worth it for that reason. Veritas is just as good as LN, and more expensive than Stanley and only a 30% premium over a used pre WWII Stanley in good shape. These are not mentioned here but are a great in between option.

 

[Echd]

"Worth" it in the sense it gives you some additional capability that doesn't otherwise exist? Absolutely not.

"Worth it" in the sense that it represents an economic boon relative to the opportunity cost it would take to tune an equivalent and badly worn Stanley or similar? Maybe if you're an elite bespoke furniture maker who bills out a lot higher than most do. Or if you're a hobbyist woodworker who for some reason compares time spent on secondary tasks against their day job in terms of monetary value.

"Worth it" in the sense that most people buying them just have an appreciation for well made tools and like the idea of having a well crafted piece of iron or similar in their hand? Possibly.

I have quite a few LV planes. I like them. Functionally they aren't demonstrably better than my Stanleys. It's not like getting an old plane back in fighting shape is a big problem either, unless it's broken. But sometimes its nice to have nicer tools, even if it's a poor value by almost any objective measure. I do love my dx60 block plane, but it does nothing an older Stanley block plane cannot do.

 

[Johnathon]

Cost to tool after casting is the cost to size ratio you're looking for, not weight of material.

I paid 80 for my stanley #3, it was in great shape and I'm sure will outlast me (maybe a new blade). If the LN in bronze was available then I would have bought it. I've used a friend's and it's a joy. There's intangibles, there's feel, there's supporting one of the few American toolmakers left, there's beauty, my grandkids could still use it if they wanted. It also holds the value. They were cheaper a while ago, but used ones sell for about as much as new today. I think all that is worth it.

 

[Wilsoncb]

I do think trying to justify or critique LN pricing by weight ignores the extra milling involved . A #8 has seven times the sole to grind flat than a one.

If you can try a LN compared to your current plane, that would help you decide.

Excellent point about the machining, I totally missed that. This helps explain what I perceived as inconsistent. My apologies for inferring otherwise.

 

[Rwe2156]

I use hand planes a lot. That doesn’t make me an expert, just knowing what works in my hands. Is there a big enough gap between a Stanley and a LN to justify the cost? I can’t answer that. I can only say the difference in performance is only going to be appreciated by certain people.

Vintage Stanley’s can certainly get the job done and for many people they stay there.

I started out like a lot of people - refurbishing or a few “rustorations” of vintage Stanley’s I bought off Ebay. But that was 20 years ago when they were half what they go for now. More often than not, it was a disappointment — “why didn’t I see that crack?”, “wow, the tote is split” or a frog screw missing etc. etc. And the backlash - I thought it was astounding.

Woodcraft had a #4 on sale for $100 so I went to the store to try it out. The second picked it up, I felt it was a better plane, then I tried it and knew it was. It is the combination of the weight, the thicker iron and cap iron. That’s me - when I say this many Stanley guys will get offended. Sorry.

I eventually sold all my Stanley’s and ended up with WR’s #4, #6, #7, and two block planes.

Santa brought me a LN LA jack. I could immediately see this was a Porsche, not a Ford Mustang. Since then I’ve added a LN 4 1/2 which is an absolute joy to use, plus a few other LN block planes.

That’s my story, what I’m telling you is for some of us, at some point we’re not just looking for function, we like the experience of using a premium tool and are willing to pay for it. No, it’s not going to make a difference in the final outcome of a project, it just makes getting there more enjoyable.

 

[Cuprousworks]

I can imagine the uproar here if our works were valued by the weight of materials, or reduced to comparison with a vintage Montgomery Ward dresser.
Mike

 

[Mike Davis]

I bought a Lie-Nielsen block plane at an estate sale. I have not used it yet as it was unused when I bought it. I could sell at a good profit but I intend to keep it a while. I'm frugal so I would not spend over $500 for a plane when I can pick up a nice one for $100 or a rusty one for $30 and rework it to nearly new function.

That extra $400 can buy a lot of lumber. (or be wasted on a laser that I have never used)

 

[creasman]

I was listening to a deer hunter one time. He was talking about the time he spent preparing to hunt, the rifle and ammo he purchased, the feed corn he was putting out, the hunting license and land lease, club membership, etc. I finally asked him how much he was spending per pound on the meat. He quickly responded, "Don't ask that!". The point is that the money spent translated to him spending time with his son doing something they both enjoyed.

Woodworking is like that for most of us here. We are never going to recoup the money we spend pursuing this activity. We could always go to the store and spend less on a table, chair, cutting board, etc., but that's not the point. We enjoy woodworking. That sometimes means spending our money on quality tools we love to use, whether old, new or refurbished.

For a company like LN they are making a quality tool that will last for generations... literally hundreds of years if properly handled. You'll only ever sell one to a single buyer. Stanley handled this problem through constant innovation and task specialization. They kept enticing the buyer with new features or a plane for a very specific task. To a lesser extent LN is doing some of this.

This has been an interesting discussion. Thanks @Wilsoncb for starting it.

 

[Rwe2156]

If you buy a LN, do not throw the box and packaging away. If for some reason you decided to sell it, 5 years later you'll get 80% of your money back!!

 

[Jack A.]

Now I'm wondering if I kept the box for that LN shoulder plane I bought. LOL

I like nice things, and I'm still employed full time, so I'll splurge on a nice tool occasionally, especially if it's something that will make my life easier.

I also really appreciate that LN tools are made in the US. I like Blue Spruce Toolworks for the same reason, and I have a couple of their pieces. I'm super happy with all of these purchases.

 

[mpeele]

The most expensive tool you have in you shop is the one you don't use.

 

[jlimey]

Excellent point about the machining, I totally missed that. This helps explain what I perceived as inconsistent. My apologies for inferring otherwise.

You aren’t too far from me. If you have a few LN planes that you would like to test out send me a PM. I may have one for you to take for a ride.