Laguna Cylcone not separating...

[LB75]

So I'm face jointing some 3" and 4" wide maple tonight and this is the first time I've used the jointer since running all of my 6" dust collection piping. I stopped to check the drum level and noticed that there are more shavings in the bag than in the drum. All of the shavings you see in the pics below are from tonight's jointer work. Any guesses as to why the shavings are getting past the cyclone? If it matters, I have 6" pipe running all the way from the cyclone to the jointer, no reductions even at the machine.

 

[Bas]

My guess is you have a leak somewhere, most likely between the cyclone body and drum. But even with leakage you should not have more shavings in the bag than in the drum. The short cyclone body design also impacts separation, but again, it should not do it to this extent. Have you experimented with opening/ closing additional blast gates, to see if it changes anything?

It's a weird issue, because with 6" pipe, you should have a lower velocity and higher volume vs. 4" pipe. Theoretically, that should make it easier for the dust to fall out of the air into the drum. But there are a lot of different forces at work here.

 

[LB75]

Thanks Bas, I'm checking my seals at the drum now now. I even tried opening other blast gates to see if that was the problem but all it resulted in was a bunch of chips on the jointer bed and most still ending up in the bag. The drum seal does seem the likely culprit at this point.

 

[ehpoole]

You definitely have an air leak somewhere, and likely a relatively significant one (though it does not take much to get bypass). Check the seal between the upper fan/impeller housing and lower funnel portion, the short flex hose (both for leaks and punctures) joining the waste barrel as well as the waste barrel seal and window for any leaks. If you need to, use a smoke source (like an extinguished match or even talcum powder -- but be very careful around sawdust if using a match) around all the seals as any leaks will draw the smoke or powder towards the leak helping to highlight it.

I have an older JDS cyclone that is similar in design (short cyclone) and what you are experiencing is absolutely not typical. While they are not as efficient as much taller models at separating waste from the air, about the only thing that should end up in the fines bag on the filter side is very fine sanding dust -- almost nothing from our larger power tools should ever make it into that bag since their waste is not especially fine. I have filled my 35 gallon waste bin many times over the years and have only a few ounces of extremely fine dust in the fines bag (and likely several more ounces in the filter), so fine it is more like fine powder.

 

[chris_goris]

sometimes the conical part of my Jet will get clogged up... not sure how in the world this can happen, but it does.... anyhow, did you look up inside of there after removing the drum?

 

[KenOfCary]

I have the 2HP version of the same cyclone. I get some stuff in the bag but I empty the drum at least 3 or 4 times before I have to touch the bag. The short funnel is not as efficient as a longer one but works sufficiently well for me. I have (had actually - still rebuilding shop) 6" main run and reducers to 4" at the equipment. The stuff in the bag tends to be the finer dust - very little from the planer or jointer, mostly from the drum sander, etc.

I added a sensor to let me know when the drum is getting full. A flashing red light is easier to see than that little window.

One of these - https://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=AXB999110B

 

[LB75]

sometimes the conical part of my Jet will get clogged up... not sure how in the world this can happen, but it does.... anyhow, did you look up inside of there after removing the drum?

All clear inside the cone and I ran a camera into the pipes, not so much as a single shaving has settled in the piping.

 

[chris_goris]

All clear inside the cone and I ran a camera into the pipes, not so much as a single shaving has settled in the piping.

Does this only happen on one particular machine?

 

[LB75]

Does this only happen on one particular machine?

Hard to tell for sure, but it does look like it's all machines based on the amount of non-shavings I saw in the bag last night. I'm going to finish up redoing the seals at the drum tonight and give it another go. The foam seal on the drum lid looked to be in pretty bad shape so I'm replacing it with a better quality foam weatherstripping.

 

[Charles Lent]

That window in the side of your drum would be the first place that I would look for a leak. I would likely just put a bead of Polyseamseal around the opening and under the plexi to seal the joint, around the bolt holes too.

A leak as severe as the one that you obviously have should be very easy to find. If you take a length of small hose and hold one end near, not in, your ear and move the other end of the hose along where you suspect that there might be a leak, you will hear a rushing noise when the end of the hose passes over the leaking point. Then stop and do something to repair the leak before proceeding. Do this for all of the seams and joints in your dust collector and you will quite likely fix your problem.
\
Get a can of fire alarm smoke tester smoke like this one https://www.amazon.com/UTC-FIRE-SEC...8&qid=1496780604&sr=8-1&keywords=smoke+in+can . You may be able to find it cheaper than this. Do your own search for a good price. There are many brands too, all typically used for testing smoke alarms, but it should work well for this purpose and it is safe.b

Spraying some of this near possible leak points should let you see the smoke being drawn toward and into the leaks. Run the dust collector and look for a leak. When you find one, make the needed repair and then restart the dust collector and retest that spot again to be certain that it's not still leaking. Then move on to the next possible location and do the same. The old way to do this was to use a smoking piece of cotton rope or a ciggarette, but using even a tiny flame like this around a dust collector is like using a match to see how much gas is in your car's gas tank. Don't do it. Use something else that doesn't involve fire for your source of smoke

Another way is to get a 3' length of small plastic tubing and hold one end near, but not in your ear. Then move the other end of the tubing along the area where you suspect a leak. A sudden rushing sound heard through the tubing indicates that there is a leak at or near the end of the hose. Stop and fix the leak and then restart the dust collector and continue testing, checking where you just repaired the leak again to be certain that you fixed it. Keep looking for and repairing the leaks until you can no longer find any. Keep these materials handy because after changing the drum or filter you may need to test again. Also do this testing on all of the seams in your ducting, but the ducts leaking are of less importance, until you can get the dust collector leaks corrected.

Charley

 

[McRabbet]

George,

As others have stated above, you must be certain there are no leaks in the dust collection bin first. But sadly, I think the main issue here is the short cone design of the Laguna cyclone. It simply is not a very efficient unit to separate the incoming air/dust/chips mixture before the air enters the blower intake and deposits a substantial percentage of the particulates into the filters and collection below it. By contrast, the ClearVue CV1800 cyclone removes upward of 99.9% of the incoming dust before air is pulled into the blower. It has a long cone and the intake chute is angled down toward the cone and has a helical ramp for the air to move smoothly, increasing the separation efficiency. Typically, one would removed a cup of fine dust from below the filters for every 5-6 barrels of chips and dust in the main bin.

But your first step is to check for leaks (every connection on the cyclone or bin that is on the suction side). I have used an incense stick (or cigarette) to generate a smoke stream that will quickly react to any leaks into the cyclone. Even ClearVue's won't operate efficiently if there are bin leaks.

Hope this helps.

 

[LB75]

Thanks everyone. I'm going over every seam on the collector and bin itself tonight to make sure everything is good and sealed. A more efficient cyclone with a longer cone isn't in the cards right now so I'm going to try to make the best of a mediocre situation.

 

[mark2]

Developed this problem on change to 6" duct - it looks a bit like you have more air volume going in than the filter is capable of exhausting - possibly clean filter or try restricting duct at planer to 4" and see what happens

 

[LB75]

Developed this problem on change to 6" duct - it looks a bit like you have more air volume going in than the filter is capable of exhausting - possibly clean filter or try restricting duct at planer to 4" and see what happens

Mark, if it does turn out to be too much air for the filter to exhaust, would I be safe in assuming that removing the filter and exhausting it directly outside would eliminate that problem? I was planning on doing it in the future, but this might just speed that project up.

 

[mark2]

I would restrict opening at tool for first trial, air volume could also be overwhelming cyclones capacity

 

[Tarhead]

Different Mark here but removing the filter will increase the flow and decrease the time for the cyclone to separate the dust from the air. Does the operating manual recommend 6" piping?

 

[Endless Pursuit]

My guess is your 6" piping is moving a lot of air but not at a high enough speed for the shavings to be centrifically moved to the perimeter of the cyclone. If they are "hovering" in the middle of the swirling airstream, they will get sucked to the filter versus falling to the bottom drum.

 

[ehpoole]

George,

As others have stated above, you must be certain there are no leaks in the dust collection bin first. But sadly, I think the main issue here is the short cone design of the Laguna cyclone. It simply is not a very efficient unit to separate the incoming air/dust/chips mixture before the air enters the blower intake and deposits a substantial percentage of the particulates into the filters and collection below it. By contrast, the ClearVue CV1800 cyclone removes upward of 99.9% of the incoming dust before air is pulled into the blower. It has a long cone and the intake chute is angled down toward the cone and has a helical ramp for the air to move smoothly, increasing the separation efficiency. Typically, one would removed a cup of fine dust from below the filters for every 5-6 barrels of chips and dust in the main bin.

But your first step is to check for leaks (every connection on the cyclone or bin that is on the suction side). I have used an incense stick (or cigarette) to generate a smoke stream that will quickly react to any leaks into the cyclone. Even ClearVue's won't operate efficiently if there are bin leaks.

Hope this helps.

FWIW, I really do not think the short stature explains anything. My 2HP JDS cyclone is very similar in design and uses a very similar, if not identical, funnel section for the cyclone and captures better than 99.99% of waste in the main waste bin. I have filled my 35 gallon barrel a good many times over the years but I have never emptied the fines bag, which contains just a few ounces of extremely fine and powdery dust (almost as fine as talcum powder). Essentially nothing from jointers, planers, tablesaws, routers, or bandsaws will make it to the fines bag as the particle size is simply too large to get carried past the impeller. It is true that a short cyclone is not quite as efficient when it comes to separating very fine particles, but for typical woodworking it is a very small performance penalty practically speaking, especially if one primarily uses a shop vac to collect their routine sanding fines (where the performance difference is actually at its greatest).

I would also be very surprised if the use of 6" pipe is the cause of issues if the run is, as stated, a 6" run all the way too the jointer and the jointer opening is, or was enlarged, to 6" (as I believe has been implied), thus no undue restrictions to airflow, and/or an auxiliary gate was also opened to allow even more makeup air in and made no observable difference. My 2HP cyclone was designed to accommodate up to an 8" intake (though such would require a great deal of air to maintain velocity over the run length, especially if choking down to 4-6" equipment ports, but I would be very comfortable with 6" duct on a decent 2HP cyclone). That said a very simple experiment if all possible sources of leaks have been thoroughly eliminated as a possibility is to install a short length (a couple feet long to establish laminar flow) of 4" pipe just before the DC intake port which will serve to momentarily greatly increase airstream speed just ahead of the cyclone. As such, I would be very surprised if this DC could not handle a 6" line as Laguna is a very reputable brand -- but if all other efforts fail it is well worth giving Laguna a call to seek their advice and assist in the troubleshooting as this is not normal behavior for a cyclone.

But at this point everything really points to an air leak within the cyclone or waste barrel which can greatly disrupt the formation of a high velocity cyclone around the perimeter of the funnel and a much slower low pressure airstream in the center of the cyclone since the newly introduced air will disrupt the physics by adding in an uncontrolled airstream disrupting the normally laminar airflow and the proper formation of a controlled low pressure zone in the interior are critical to proper formation of the cyclone and particle separation.

Again, I wish the OP the very best of luck in resolving this issue as I know such issues can be frustrating when all you really want to do is make use of your new setup and get started on a new project!

 

[LB75]

Well, I finally got to test the system last night after getting the barrel sealed up and am getting the same results, more shavings in the bag than in the drum. Did some more testing and found that if I close the 6" blast gate at the jointer halfway, the problem goes away. I also found that I am not having the problem when using my planer which is connected to the system using a 6" to 4" reducer. This leads me to believe that I need to go back to the stock 4" port on the jointer to reduce the amount of air being pulled into the ducting. I'll have to do the same on my table saw since I noticed last night that when the 6" blast gate on my TS is wide open, shavings are getting sucked out of the drum and into the bag even if I'm not cutting anything.

 

[HMH]

Hey George,

Interesting - I'm following this post very closely. I have the same DC, and a good it of 6" PVC and fittings waiting to be run to the machines, and was just thinking about opening up the larger machines to 6" ports, (new 6.1/4" hole saw and a few bell-mouth fittings in my Grainger cart, ha). That said, from what you mention, stepping the 6" duct to 4" at the machines sounds like it may be the better plan.