Gun Cabinet Questions

[cpowell]

A friend at work asked me to build him a gun cabinet. He wants raised panels on the sides and drawer fronts like the first pic below. He wants a two piece construction with bottom cabinet (2 drawers, 1 door) and top cabinet separate, like shown in the second pic below. He also wants the foot detail to be similar to the second pic. It will be sized for 10 long guns (7 rifles, 3 shotguns). Rough dimensions are 48W x 75H x 17D.

I don't have a raised panel or rail/stile set. He has offered to buy me one as part of the price but I have some concerns/questions. (He seemed to like the roundover rail/stile with an ogee raised panel.)

I would like to have raised panels with an edge profile on the rails/stiles but I want the joinery to be M&T. The rail/stile sets I've looked at online cut the profile on the rails so there is only 3/8 inch or so of "pseudo-tenon" at the rail ends. This can't be as strong as a M&T joint.

I guess the bottom line question is, how do I rout the stiles/rails to get the desired edge profile and still use M&T joints for strength? Do I have to use an appropriately sized roundover bit then use the TS (or straight bit) to cut the dados in the rails/stiles?

I am comfortable with the overall construction and hope to get a new tool out of the deal...a NICE new tool out of the deal!

Also, he has asked for construction in "oak". I gave him a price estimate for wood only for flat sawn red oak, then also gave him prices for cherry, walnut, QS white oak. He doesn't want cherry or walnut...most of his furniture is oak. I figured 400 dollars for flat sawn red oak, 655 dollars for QS oak. I also counted on yielding 2/3 of the purchased stock. Does that seem reasonable?

I have never worked with QS material (except when it got thrown into the mix accidentally) but wonder if it would be worth using to avoid any potential problems with warping/movement on the panels. Is this a valid concern? Is a good compromise to go with QS stock on the panels and flat sawn on the remainder?

I will admit that I have not had a problem with cupping/movement after assembly using KD red oak but I would be sick if it happened on something so nice for a friend.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. Pics below.

Chuck

 

[Monty]

Hmmmm.... when you have a friend who's that well armed, I think you better do a good job!


The stub tenons you get with a cope & stick set are weak, but would be fine for a glued plywood panel. You can use your cope & stick bits from the raised panel set. Just don't use the coping bit on the end grain of your rails. Instead, cut out your tenon just as you normally would (if you want to you can make a stepped tenon with the back shoulder further back). Use your stick bit on your stiles, and chisel away the front molding profile on the stiles where the rails meet the stiles. It's easier to explain in pictures. I have an excellent article on this technique, from FWW March/April 1999, but for the life of me I can't find it online....


Here... I found a picture that shows what I'm talking about. Let's see if it shows up:

 

[Travis Porter]

Hmmmmmmm............... Let's see. I may not answer/comment on everything, so if I miss something it is probably unintentional.

I have used the cope and stick router bits for everything from doors to an entire bar. Although not as strong as mortise and tenon, it is pretty strong (stronger than I would have thought), and for frame stuff it is plenty strong IMO. Regardless, if you want to do mortise and tenon, you can still use the stick profile of the bit set and do some extra cutting/handwork to do the tenons as Monty outlined. I believe I have seen a Lonnie Bird, Gary Rogowski,or Steve Latta article in how to do it either in one of the Taunton "Complete illustrated Guide to", online on FWW website, or in one of the mags using the one router bit and cutting long tenons.

As for quartersawn oak, if you use QS, I would use it all the way. I have used "whatever" sawn red oak and white oak for bars, 3 sets of kitchen cabinets, and quite a few other pieces and never had issues with cupping. I have had one glue joint in a pine panel come apart one time in a door and that was because I had made the panel too tight. Normally, you allow a little space width wise in your panels for expansion/contraction. As for mixing and matching QS and "whatever" sawn, I personally don't think it would look right.

For the edges he is talking about, that is the style I have used most often. Ogee raised panel and round over cope and stick. My advice on the router bits is to buy the best you can afford. I have had good success with CMT and Freud. I used to use the craftsman reversible set, but it took forever for me to get the shims lined up. They work, and if that is what is in your budget go for it, but they eat up more time so it is trade off. Time or money IMO.

For the glass doors, you can use the same cutters and just rip off the back edge of the bottom groove and make you some pieces to nail back in. Only caveat with making glass doors I have had is to make absolutely sure you use flat straight stock and that when you glue them up and clamp them they are flat, as I learned this one the hardway and had to remake 3 doors one time.

For raising the panels with the raised panel bit, a large variable speed router if you have it is the way to go. 3HP is nice, but you can do it with smaller. Regardless, use the slowest speed you have, and I would raise it in around 3 to 4 passes with your last pass being a final smoothing cut. I believe most panels are 5/8, but I have done 3/4 as well to make the panel stand out more. I believe they are done as 5/8 so the entire door, frame panel and all, can be sanded through a wide belt/drum at one time.

I'm rambling....

It looks like it will be a fun project. Are you going to do inset "cut outs" to hold the gun butts? I would think you would want the guns to "lean" towards the back as well. Locks on any of the doors/drawers?

Oh, hinges. Euro/cup hinges are the way to go! Be careful though if you put an edge on the outside of the door panels the hole for the hinge may go through. A 1/4 inch round over is safe, but anything more is risky. DAMHIKT.

 

[cpowell]

Thanks for the help. It looks like it will take a whole lot more time doing the raised panels with M&T joints.

Monty, that pic helps a lot. I see what would need to be done. I will try to read up a litle bit more before I make a final decision.

Travis, I plan on making cutouts for the butts of the rifles on an incline. That will be a design on the fly solution.

Concerning yield...if I feel I need 80 bd ft in cut dimensioned stock, should I plan on 120 bd ft of purchased rough stock (roughly 1/3 waste)? I always over buy for projects for the house since whatever is left goes in the lumber rack so I have never actually tracked yield.

I intend to use ply for the back and solid stock for the remainder.

The good news is I'm not pressed for time so I can break the project down into manageable pieces. I'm hoping for an April 1 completion date.

 

[Travis Porter]

To me, 1/3 is a lot of waste/extra, but it gives you some room to work with....
Looking at it, you are going to have a smallish base and decent sized upper. I would say 30 percent extra on the high, 20 percent average, 10 percent minimum.

 

[Joe Scharle]

Don't forget floating tenons.

 

[cpowell]

Don't forget floating tenons.

That is definitely worth considering. I have thought about them before but have no experience so I would have a learning curve to deal with. Would they save a lot of time over traditional M&T techniques?

Do you make your own tenons?

How would you set up to make 9 panels, assuming the frames are the same thickness (3/4 inch)? Router, jig with stop blocks on the fence?

Chuck

 

[toolferone]

Sorta kinda off topic, but I don't get the whole gun cabinet thing. They are not secure enough. Guns should be stored in a safe for safety, accidents, and theft. Just my .02 cents worth.

 

[cpowell]

Sorta kinda off topic, but I don't get the whole gun cabinet thing. They are not secure enough. Guns should be stored in a safe for safety, accidents, and theft. Just my .02 cents worth.

Tom, everything is not so black and white.

I grew up in a hunting family. I learned how to safely handle a firearm as well as how to keep it clean and how to use it. Now I have kids at home. A safe makes sense. Handguns get a trigger guard. Only "Dad" knows where the key is stored and he ain't telling.

But I am glad my colleague wants a nice custom cabinet. :-D His children are grown, he apparently has a decent gun collection (and home security system) and wants to display them. The cabinet will have locks.

A custom built rifle is a thing of beauty. Stocks are of the finest wood available with beautiful carving. The mechanics are flawless. Tolerances are just plain superb. These are worthy of display.

The worn side-by-side damascus barrel shotgun that has been in the family for three generations and is no longer safe to shoot is also worthy of display. I believe a fine gun cabinet is appropriate to display a fine firearm collection. Since he is unwilling to spend the money to buy a fine gun cabinet I'm gonna build him one he can afford! :lol: :lol:

Chuck

 

[toolferone]

Chuck,

First don't get me wrong, I love guns. You are right there are many beautiful pieces out there and they are meant to be looked at, handled, and admired. I no the answer is not so B&W, but I worry about all the bad press we gun people get when something bad happens to honest gun people. Am I making any sense? My humble collection is stored in a safe since like you I have kids.

Well I hope I have not come off to stupid here :rbedface: .

 

[cpowell]

Chuck,

First don't get me wrong, I love guns. You are right there are many beautiful pieces out there and they are meant to be looked at, handled, and admired. I no the answer is not so B&W, but I worry about all the bad press we gun people get when something bad happens to honest gun people. Am I making any sense? My humble collection is stored in a safe since like you I have kids.

Well I hope I have not come off to stupid here :rbedface: .

I know just what you mean, Tom. I worry about the bad press too. It's a difficult subject to discuss. I have to think too long about what I write. I like your line

"they are meant to be looked at, handled, and admired". Perfect. :icon_thum

So, any advice for me before I botch this cab?

 

[toolferone]

:icon_thum
So, any advice for me before I botch this cab?

Build it out of steel :rolf: !

I like the idea of the loose tenon to strengthen the joints. I have the bead loc kit I have used a few times. Remember the glass doors will be HEAVY. Have your hardware first so you can plan for them ie: hinges handles, locks... Depending on his budget consider using suede to cradle the barrel of the gun. Looks nice and wears better then felt.

Thats all I can think of for the moment.

 

[Joe Scharle]

Look at this:
Eagle Lake Woodworking
Click on 'In The Shop'

I used to use a router table setup until I got the WoodRat.
I make my tenons from the same material as I'm cutting mortises into.

The Beadlok tool uses a drill bit and pre made tenon stock you can buy.

I used to be able to scroll down and refer to previous entries to remember what I was talking about, but not this time.