Garage Electrical Advice

[beloitdavisja]

You said both your main and house sub panels are full. So, if you are going to have the main panel replaced, now would be a good time to have the replacement panel include a transfer switch to allow you to hook up an emergency generator. Even though a 30A generator (i.e 5500 kw) may meet your emergency needs, have them run the wire for the generator plug-in capable of carrying 50A in case you want to upgrade later.

My hope is that we can find some space by eliminating some things - I don't really need the wine refrigerator, there's also a "Surge Suppressor" taking up two 20amp breakers, and another 20amp breaker for an electronic air cleaner, which i have yet to find. There are a few other unlabeled breakers as well that I need to figure out what they do.

As for the generator, I already have a transfer switch on the main, it's a 70amp breaker (bottom right). The inside panel has labelled what breakers are on the transfer switch. When we lost power christmas eve, the generator turned on automatically and most of the downstairs outlets and lights worked, as well as the refrigerator and gas furnace. I believe it's a Generac Guardian, 20 or 22kW, natural gas powered. It turns on once a week for a maintenance cycle.

The circuits in the garage will have to be in conduit if they are not run behind the sheet rock or paneling. As Rob said, all the wall outlets will have to be GFI protected (various ways to do this. GFI breakers (expensive) or GFI outlet on the first outlet coming from the panel, which if wired correctly (in series) will protect the following outlets on the circuit). That said, your electrician should be following code, as well as getting the required permits, etc.

This I was expecting - Walls having paneling. I do like the idea of maybe running fewer outlets, but having them be 4 gang with separate circuits.

Sorry - I'm just not that sold on running 220 at the moment. Although if I run a subpanel, having capacity to have a 220 circuit in the future I'll do. As stated above, AC is not an option. An EV/Plugin is a possibility, but not in the next 5 years at least with our current vehicles.

 

[zdorsch]

We built a new house fairly recently and I did 100A sub panel in the garage for this

Something else to consider about a 220 circuit -- sometime in the future you may want to charge an electric vehicle, or install air conditioning for the shop.

This is partly why I went with a 100 amp panel.

 

[ssmith]

... there's also a "Surge Suppressor" taking up two 20amp breakers, and another 20amp breaker for an electronic air cleaner, which i have yet to find. There are a few other unlabeled breakers as well that I need to figure out what they do.

As for the generator, I already have a transfer switch on the main, it's a 70amp breaker (bottom right). The inside panel has labelled what breakers are on the transfer switch. When we lost power christmas eve, the generator turned on automatically and most of the downstairs outlets and lights worked, as well as the refrigerator and gas furnace. I believe it's a Generac Guardian, 20 or 22kW, natural gas powered. It turns on once a week for a maintenance cycle.

One of the most difficult things will be for your electrician to figure out what your really have there. For one thing, the "surge suppressor" isn't one, it's a regular breaker. Also, it's odd they have your transfer switch on a breaker in the panel if that's how they actually connected it. Usually the transfer switch is connected directly to the panel bus. Collectively, that makes me wonder how many of the labels on the panel are accurate.

 

[beloitdavisja]

For one thing, the "surge suppressor" isn't one, it's a regular breaker. Also, it's odd they have your transfer switch on a breaker in the panel if that's how they actually connected it. Usually the transfer switch is connected directly to the panel bus. Collectively, that makes me wonder how many of the labels on the panel are accurate.

I found the surge suppressor. it's mounted below the main box. Previous owner was an A/V nut and had installed A/V on the side. and probably wanted the protection for his equipment.

The actual transfer switch is inside on the same wall that the main panel is on. Most of the circuits the generator covers are on the subpanel.

Apart from the few missing labels, the ones that are there I've found to be accurate.

 

[Howie]

Go as big as you safely can. Panels are cheap and can be found on CL and FBM w/breakers even cheaper. I just installed sub panel in garage and have left over direct bury wire I would sell. I did all the work myself and have about $300. in materials cost. Lots of good vids. on YT. Even if you just do "the grunt work" and let electrician do final connecting you could save a ton.

 

[Keye]

LED strip lighting- you will love it

Electrical CODE is minimum. Yes copper is expensive but I would not use any wire less than 12 ga.

Surface mount may not be as neat or pretty but it might save you a good deal of money. I used surface mount panel and outlets. I used EMT for the wiring.

With you equipment being mobile you may find you want to move it outside even with a DC system. Dust WILL find a way into the house. This will not make your wife very happy.

A cheap DC system is the garage door open, the tool near the garage door and a strong fan running behind you. Even with my expensive DC system running I still try to set up this way when I can.

 

[golfdad]

My sub panel is 60 amp also. Always have had plenty of power. Granted I do not own an elec vehicle.

 

[HITCH-]

Are you running the wires inside the wall or in conduit on the wall surface? If you are using conduit go a bit larger than required to allow for future work.
I am in the process of laying out my shop wiring. I plan on a series of double gang boxes down the wall with 2 outlets in each which are on separate circuits. The outlets will be different colors to indicate which circuit they are on.

 

[bob vaughan]

Sorry - I'm just not that sold on running 220 at the moment. Although if I run a subpanel, having capacity to have a 220 circuit in the future I'll do.

Wise move. Like most beginning hobbiests, I started out strictly 120 volt tools but as my woodworking needs matured, I found a need for 240 volts for machines capable of making my recreational woodworking time more efficient. Compressors and dust collectors are usually the first needs. After may decades of woodworking at home, I've got eight woodworking machines that run on 240 volts.

 

[Echd]

I believe that code requires any outlets in garage spaces to be GFCI (ground fault).

Does it? I have some GFCI breakers run in my garage that will trip almost instantly when run with inverter motors. Luckily I also have non GFCI breakers for some circuits that do not have that problem.

My 1.5HP delta lathe especially... if you put it on one of the protected circuits, it will often trip just seconds after spinning up. And it is definitely not drawing too much current.

ETA: they do appear to be required... luckily someone didn't pay attention to that I guess. Including the home inspector.

 

[HITCH-]

Does it? I have some GFCI breakers run in my garage that will trip almost instantly when run with inverter motors. Luckily I also have non GFCI breakers for some circuits that do not have that problem.

My 1.5HP delta lathe especially... if you put it on one of the protected circuits, it will often trip just seconds after spinning up. And it is definitely not drawing too much current.

ETA: they do appear to be required... luckily someone didn't pay attention to that I guess. Including the home inspector.

On that note :are you allowed to use a gfci breaker rather than a gfci outlet to meet code ? I wonder if that would cause the same problem with inverter motors?

 

[Echd]

On that note :are you allowed to use a gfci breaker rather than a gfci outlet to meet code ? I wonder if that would cause the same problem with inverter motors?

No idea. My house was built in 1996 and like all houses you didn't build or spec yourself, you often find some things that you can't quite figure out.

Such as in the days before mostly color coordinated romex, why are some of the outlets run with 12/2 but attached to a 15 amp breaker even for relatively small loads?

I just assume code changed somewhat over time and they were cautious about loads in the days prior to LED lighting dominance for shared circuits...

 

[JRedding]

Recently completed a shop build and learned that code here is GFCI on the breaker for 240. It caused some problems for my lathe (PM 3520b) so had to switch that out.

I didn’t pay attention to the 110, but I have looked and there’s no GFCI at the breakers and instead is in line at some of the outlets.

 

[bob vaughan]

GFCI and VFDs don't get along. VFDs will dump small amounts of current down the ground wire. Got zapped (slightly) once when setting up and testing a VFD rig without a good ground.

 

[HITCH-]

GFCI and VFDs don't get along. VFDs will dump small amounts of current down the ground wire. Got zapped (slightly) once when setting up and testing a VFD rig without a good ground.

So is there a work around that is code compliant?

 

[RickR]

It is my understanding that HARDWIRED applications in a garage do not require CFCI protection.

 

[JRedding]

My only work around was to have the GFCI breaker installed, get inspection completed, then trade it out for a non-GFCI breaker. Certainly not to code, but haven’t had an issue since. In my last shop (in CA), there was no requirement for GFCI breakers at the time it was built and never had an issue

 

[Gofor]

It is my understanding that HARDWIRED applications in a garage do not require CFCI protection.

I believe you are correct. When my house was built in 2005, they allowed a dedicated outlet to be installed without GCFI, which they did for my freezer. Since then, they have changed that to hard wired, which is how they hooked up my water heater..