From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck Ariz

[Unregistered]

Name: Bill Baumbeck Arizona Silhouette Inc.
Email: azsil@mindspring.com
Subject: Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy
--------------------

I request that the following response be posted in the thread concerning the Arizona Silhouette Group Buy:

I received a telephone call on Friday, July 18, from the owner of this forum asking me for information on what happened to this group buy. I explained in detail what I knew about.

He mentioned that were negative comments made about our company that I might want to read and comment on. I initially declined his offer but after reading the nonsense posted it’s obvious that most of you do not know what happened.

1. Phillip did not place an order for any pen kits with our company. All I knew is that he was trying to put together an order to exceed 500 pen kits so that an additional 5% discount might be applied. He did not tell me what specific kits were being ordered, the total of each kit being ordered, etc.

Now think about it: How can I quote accurate pricing if I don’t know what is being ordered? How can I apply discount pricing if I don’t know the amount of what is being ordered? And most importantly how can Phillip collect money for kits he has no idea of what the final pricing will be?

Displayed below is the last email contact I had with Phillip:

Phillip,

We are not going to be able to give you a final price until we see what you've ordered, how many of each you ordered and, most importantly, whether or not everything is in stock (we do not back order out-of-stock items).

Phillip, in all honesty, you are doing this group buy the hard way. You want specific pricing yet I don't know what you want and I don't know if it is in stock.

The special pricing will be applied when the order is processed here - you will not see the corrected pricing on your order confirmation. If you are trying to match pennies and dollars before you order we better stop right now.

The proper way to conduct an order this large is for someone to 'front' the entire cost and then let each participant know what is owed once the order is received by the master buyer. You have a major headache awaiting you doing it the way you are.

BB


I have no intent in getting into a battle with any of you and this will be my only post on this matter in this forum. I would suggest that, in the future, you get the entire story before you start defaming any individual or business.

Thank you for your time.

Bill Baumbeck
Arizona Silhouette Inc.

--------------------
User Name: Unregistered
User ID: 0
IP Address: 74.87.159.224
Referring URL: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/login.php?do=emailpassword

 

[gator]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

I don't know if this was put here for comments or if I am even qualified to make a comment, but;

Hopefully someone with more tact and more of a way with words than I will come up with the proper way to handle this.

I think that Bill makes some valid points as to how the group buy was handled, and I think that those who were involved in the buy need to know the full story, but I think to post it as it stands may also appear to be a slap in the face to Phillip. This is truly 'a rock and a hard spot' situation. The need for those involved to know the truth and not harbor bad feelings about Arizona Silhouette vs the need to not create a situation where Phillip is embarrassed.

Good luck to whoever is assigned to handle this.

George

 

[DaveO]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Right now no one but the staff can see this thread. And I think that is a good thing. But how to edit this to not "slap Phillip in the face" and still convey the message that Bill is trying to say.

Dave

 

[SteveColes]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Right now no one but the staff can see this thread. And I think that is a good thing. But how to edit this to not "slap Phillip in the face" and still convey the message that Bill is trying to say.

Dave

Actually, I screwed up and posted Bill's response in the thread. Then I saw gator's response and quickly soft deleted it.

The thing is, I talked to Bill on the phone for almost an hour and I know what he was trying to say, he just didn't do good job of it. As I said in the other thread, I've never heard anything bad about AS before, in fact I've only heard good things. So when, everyone jumped on the bandwagon about wanting the money up front, I thought I would investigate. I thought it only fair that Bill have the chance to respond the implicit bad mouthing.

However what I'm going to do, is PM Phillip with Bill's message and see what he says.

It may not be clear from Bill's message, but the only thing that really matters is that Bill said he didn't want the money up front. He wanted the proposed order up front, before he could give any final pricing.

 

[ScottM]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Ouch. I am glad Steve gets the big bucks or siund I say pay the big bucks to be man in charge.

Dead serious now. I am afraid this is already gone bad. Before it gets worse, I would like to suggest the following steps.

1) Steve to contact Philip. Steve you mentioned you were going to PM him. This one needs a phone call I am afraid.

2) We need to close or better yet soft delete the old tread. We don't want it to be said that NCWW is unjustly bad mouthing AS around the cyber world.

3) Steve or the advisory council should post an announcement saying to the affect thatNCWW has been in discussion with AS and the issue with our pen order was the result of miss communication and not the fault of either NCWW, it's members or AS.

4) All the above should happen ASAP.


That is my 2 cents. I hope it helps.

 

[sapwood]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Yikes, what a can of worms!
But the can is open and it's something that could occur in the future. We will never know all the facts, although miscommunication played a large part.

My $.0002 :dontknow:
It is not NCWWers responsibility to determine fault. However, it is our responsibility to allow AS a reply. Add Bill's response to the thread, add disclaimer or comment as you see fit Steve, and close it to eliminate further replies.Then let the cards fall as they will and allow readers to come to their own conclusions.

Roger

 

[cskipper]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Well, that will teach me to get tied up away from the group for a day or so. I'm curious as to the status of this. FWIW, I think Scott's suggestion was a good one - no matter the final outcome.

 

[SteveColes]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

To recap:

Several things were bothering me about the whole AS group buy.

• The pen buy seemed to take too long.
• I was curious about the comment

  Arizona wants me to pay full price up front with the discount coming on after I've already placed/paid the order

  .
• Several people had complained to me and one said they had called AS and no order had ever been sent.
• Then we got a lot of negative response in the thread about AS becuase of Phillip's comment.
• Yet, I've only heard good things about AS and their service

So, I called Bill, on the 18th and we talked for about an hour. He was bit difficult to understand becuase he kept jumping all over the place. But 3 points were pertinent.

• He never saw a proposed or actual order, so couldn't quote any price. They can no longer do back ordering, so if you order something out of stock, it will not be count and it will not be charged for.
• He doesn't require non-discounted payment up front.
• He has strong opinions about how someone should organize a group buy. They are opinions, not what he requires.

After Bill sent in his post, I thought I'd better PM Philip.

Phillip, I got quite concerned about this whole group buy when people started blasted AS becuase of the pay full price up front. AS has a pretty good rep and I wanted to be sure what was going on.

I called Bill and spoke to him for about an hour. I also told him that he could post a response in the thread if he wished. We give this opportunity to any individual or company that gets blasted.

Please understand, that I am not accusing of you of anything. I think you did a great job right up until the end. The only real problem is that it took longer than people expected and of course in the end it didn't happen. But I and others received our refunds promptly, so no harm, no foul. So my only concern is that AS doesn't get a bum rap becuase of what I suspect is a communication problem. So if you would comment on his message, I would appreciate it.

Thanks for trying to pull this together. Perhaps we'll try again at a later date.

<cite class="smallfont"></cite>

Name: Bill Baumbeck Arizona Silhouette Inc.
Email: azsil@mindspring.com
Subject: Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy
--------------------

I request that the following response be posted in the thread concerning the Arizona Silhouette Group Buy:

I received a telephone call on Friday, July 18, from the owner of this forum asking me for information on what happened to this group buy. I explained in detail what I knew about.

He mentioned that were negative comments made about our company that I might want to read and comment on. I initially declined his offer but after reading the nonsense posted it’s obvious that most of you do not know what happened.

1. Phillip did not place an order for any pen kits with our company. All I knew is that he was trying to put together an order to exceed 500 pen kits so that an additional 5% discount might be applied. He did not tell me what specific kits were being ordered, the total of each kit being ordered, etc.

Now think about it: How can I quote accurate pricing if I don’t know what is being ordered? How can I apply discount pricing if I don’t know the amount of what is being ordered? And most importantly how can Phillip collect money for kits he has no idea of what the final pricing will be?

Displayed below is the last email contact I had with Phillip:

Phillip,

We are not going to be able to give you a final price until we see what you've ordered, how many of each you ordered and, most importantly, whether or not everything is in stock (we do not back order out-of-stock items).

Phillip, in all honesty, you are doing this group buy the hard way. You want specific pricing yet I don't know what you want and I don't know if it is in stock.

The special pricing will be applied when the order is processed here - you will not see the corrected pricing on your order confirmation. If you are trying to match pennies and dollars before you order we better stop right now.

The proper way to conduct an order this large is for someone to 'front' the entire cost and then let each participant know what is owed once the order is received by the master buyer. You have a major headache awaiting you doing it the way you are.

BB


I have no intent in getting into a battle with any of you and this will be my only post on this matter in this forum. I would suggest that, in the future, you get the entire story before you start defaming any individual or business.

Thank you for your time.

Bill Baumbeck
Arizona Silhouette Inc.
​

From Phillip, I received these replies:

.........

I don't feel like you are blaming me at all. Running a community such as this is made much better by your efforts and standards that you follow.

Please accept my apologies for not being able to finalize the order. I would like to try it again, after things around here slow down a bit (which will be soon, I graduate in 3 weeks and start a new job in 4 weeks).

In setting up this group buy, I sent several emails to Mr. Baumbeck. Somewhere in our emails I got the assumption that I should figure out the pen prices based off of the pricing structure posted on his website. Using that pricing, deduct 5% if we had reached the 500 mark.

I thought I had explained to Mr. Baumbeck what I was doing. I guess I didn't explain it well enough.

Personally, I don't have close to $3,000 to pay for the group buy up front. Not to mention I don't have a need for that many pen kits if people backed out after the order was placed.

I hate that things worked out the way they did, I don't really see either of us at fault. It's more like a case of miscommunication. When dealing with an order of that size (atleast to me it's rather big), a complete understanding is a must.

I can see myself using AS to purchase products again. I probably won't try to set up a group buy until I know I can front the cost and then split the costs up afterwards.

Once again, please accept my apologies for this group buy dissolving.

To be honest, I am of 2 minds about this whole thing. I do know that we will have to come up with another policy:thumbs_do:swoon::elvis::thumbs_do about group buys done on this site.

Anyway, what do you thing should be done about this one. I am going to temporarily soft delete the AS group thread(s)

 

[gator]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

I'll not try to put words in your mouth but perhaps a post from you entitled 'New Group Buy Policy Coming'.

You could say something like,

"After the outcome of the attempted group buy from AS, I spoke with Bill B and Phillip and it appears that there was a miscommunication/misunderstanding by both parties. AS has a history of being a good vendor and we would not want NCWW to besmurch that reputation with misinformation.

In order to prevent this scenerio from repeating in the future, with any vendor, and feelings and reputations being damaged by a misunderstanding, we will be creating a Group Buy Policy for NCWW. This policy will be developed by the staff and announced when finalized."

Just a preliminary draft of a possible post. Maybe as an announcement with no replies allowed?

George

 

[Douglas Robinson]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Since every vendor is different, it will be hard to draft a very detailed policy for group buys. Here are my suggestions:

• The person(s) spear-heading the group-buy should contact the vendor before soliciting NCWWers to participate, in order to outline and fully understand the parameters of the purchase;
• These parameters must be clearly related in a group-buy post;
• While members are free to organize group-buys, NCWWI, does NOT in any way endorse or warranty such group-buys;
• NCWWer's buy at their own risk;
• In the unlikely event that someone makes off with other NCWWer's $, that person will be banned; and
• As always, NCWWer reserves the right to delete posts regarding a group-buy if the transaction looks questionable, or if comments regarding vendors get too personable of defamatory.

Doug

 

[SteveColes]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

I'll not try to put words in your mouth but perhaps a post from you entitled 'New Group Buy Policy Coming'.

You could say something like,

"After the outcome of the attempted group buy from AS, I spoke with Bill B and Phillip and it appears that there was a miscommunication/misunderstanding by both parties. AS has a history of being a good vendor and we would not want NCWW to besmurch that reputation with misinformation.

In order to prevent this scenerio from repeating in the future, with any vendor, and feelings and reputations being damaged by a misunderstanding, we will be creating a Group Buy Policy for NCWW. This policy will be developed by the staff and announced when finalized."

Just a preliminary draft of a possible post. Maybe as an announcement with no replies allowed?

George

I think those words WILL be coming out of OUR mouths:gar-La;:thumbs_up:thumbs_upGreat work

 

[ScottM]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

I think George and Doug have hit it right on the head. The only additional suggestion would be on the policy. Any group buys must be reviewed and approved by a member of the advisory board before opening it to the membership. This too might help to eliminate shady dealings.

 

[cskipper]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

If we make folks pass it through the advisory board, is that making it a NCWWI issue instead of a NCWW issue?

 

[gator]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Cathy -

i don't see the difference. If all goes as Steve anticipates, NCWW.net will simply be the, or one of the, educational vehicle(s) of NCWWI. Still a part of, and subject to, the policies of NCWWI.

George

 

[Douglas Robinson]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

We need to be carefule here. Scott if NCWW has to pre-approve all group buy posts then it is harder for us to separate ourselves if the purchase goes sour. We can always delete posts that are going south after the posting. Just my 2 cents.

Doug

 

[SteveColes]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Here's what I think may be a simple way of solving most of the problem. Proposal that probably should be filled in more:

Using North Carolina Woodworker as a vehicle to organize a group purchase.

There are two (2) methods that a prospective organizer may use at NCWW.net to expedite the organization.

Private:

An organizer may announce in the public forums that they wish to organize a group purchase. The announcement may include sufficient information about the details to attract prospective participants. It must also include contact information that will allow the participants to communicate, in private, the details, progress, etc of the purchase. This could be Private Messages, email, phone numbers. In practice the organized, should not post email or phone numbers in the message. It is recommended that PMs be used to exchange email, phone numbers, etc.

A NCWW staff member will add a standard disclaimer to the first post, disavowing any connection to the purchase by NCWW.net other than as a vehicle to make the announcement. The announcement thread will remain open long enough for members to ask clarifying questions and response public responses. No financial or particiipant details will be allowed. NCWW reserves the right to edit, close or delete the announcement thread.
​

Public:

In this case, the organizing of the purchase may be done publically in the thread(s) of this forum. However, the organizer must receive permission to use the forums for this purpose. You will be required to send a PM to the Webmaster or Senior Moderator(s) describing the purchase and the vendor, if already identified. Once approval has been given and the organizer posts the initial announcement, a staff member will be appointed to monitor the whole process and will have the power to advise, require specific actions, and if necessary terminate the whole process.

Members who have organized successful group buys in the past, may be given automatic permission to initiate group buys without seeking prior approval. This will be at discretion of the staff.​

Feedback, suggestions, etc. I think the basic idea is probably correct, but details and methodology could use a lot of work.

 

[ScottM]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

We need to be carefule here. Scott if NCWW has to pre-approve all group buy posts then it is harder for us to separate ourselves if the purchase goes sour. We can always delete posts that are going south after the posting. Just my 2 cents.

Doug

Doug, in matters of law I yield to your judgement. Where I was going was if the board had to pre-approve, we could hopefully stop scams before they even started. JM2C

 

[cskipper]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Steve, that sounds reasonable. I'll try to re-read in the a.m. - the thunderstorms are too wicked to stay online and am not sure how long the battery will last.

Scott - I suspected that was your goal. I thought that we might need to look at it a little more closely since we are incorporating.

 

[sapwood]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Good input on the "disclaimer" and "policy". It's nice to be associated with fine thinkers and policy makers :mrgreen:

But sometimes I wish more of the Mod/Admin/AP folks would chime in :widea:

Roger

 

[NZAPP1]

Re: From Contact Us Form - Response to Arizona Silhouette Group Buy - Bill Baumbeck

Steve
I think you have the basics right and think it is heading in the right direction and I think it will work but my need a little tweaking as we go MTCW :thumbs_up