Foundation Support Question

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Charlottend

New User
Brian
I know it's a bit of a strange question but here goes... Trying to sell my house and working through the list left by the home inspector.

It's built on a crawl space and the floor joists rest on cement block piers topped with pressure treated lumber and finally a sheet of OSB/Plywood as a final spacers/shims between the PT and floor joists.

The inspector claims that OSB and Plywood aren't allowed to be used as spacers on piers like this. He originally said they had to be metal, but has now fallen back to "material consistent with customary building standards".

We called the Mecklenburg Inspectors office and spoke with a building inspector. Explained the situation and were referred to the code where it says shim material must be like kind to the floor joists. When asked if OSB or Plywood would be considered "like kind" for wood floor joists, he said "yes".

Problem is, even with that, the home inspector claims that anyone at the county or engineers office will say no due to the risk of compression of OSB. The Mecklenburg office won't give their opinion backing us up in writing without us having a project permit pulled. Since we don't need one we're at a stand still with the buyers on the side of the home inspector, and me not wanting to have to replace all the shims.

House was built in 1997 so I don't know if the code would have changed since then, but obviously this passed inspection when being built.. Measuring today with a micrometer showed that the OSB was 12mm under load of the floor joist and 12mm at the end of the shim which wasn't under load.

Any one with ideas, opinions, or suggestions would be welcome.
 

Bigdog72

New User
Geoff
It's more the chance of deterioration of the plywood/OSB than compression. Obviously, your shims haven't deteriorated. Your options are to replace shims with oak and/or douglas fir wedges or have an engineer take a look and give you a sealed letter. Do you have access to the house plans? They could be on file at the building dept. An engineer's letter will trump the home inspector and you can move forward.
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Staff member
Corporate Member
Home Inspectors were initially almost a scam until the state took to regulating them. They are now held liable if any defects are found within a reasonable period of time from their inspections. Therefore, they are remiss to sign off on anything that they even think is questionable. An engineer or replacement would be the recommended routes. Get quotes from both. You may find it is cheaper to replace them. A hydraulic jack, some cribbing, and a few pieces of oak, steel, or whatever, and it's a done deal. The original home inspector may still have to sign off if they are replaced.
 

Joe Scharle

New User
Joe
I was lic# 851 until it really got ridiculous. But my suggestion is to hire your own home inspector. But only one with ASHI menbership and P.E. after his/her name. Make certain that he/she is a Professional Engineer (P.E.).
 

Ray Martin

New User
Ray
One of the arguments regarding shims I've heard was that the material had to be 'solid wood' ... if it was made of wood. Compression was the problem. If I build with wood (like a girder) on piers, I top the pier with galvanized steel. Some inspectors have required that.

I agree with other posters that a PE may be able to help.
 

Rob

New User
Rob
I still think home inspection is a scam depending on who inspects. I would hire your own as suggested.

Home inspection story. Had one that didn't like my ground on a garbage disposal. 50 year old house, old wiring, no central ground. I grounded it to the cold water pipe per what an electrician stated was allowable under the code. (I didn't actually read the code.) Sellers home inspector wanted me to remove it. I told the prospective buyer that he was more then welcome to cut it once he purchased it, but I wouldn't. I told the inspector that it was allowed by code, he told me he doesn't inspect by code. Not sure what he meant but the house sold and I didn't cut the ground.
 

Ray Martin

New User
Ray
I still think home inspection is a scam depending on who inspects. I would hire your own as suggested.

.... I told the inspector that it was allowed by code, he told me he doesn't inspect by code. Not sure what he meant but the house sold and I didn't cut the ground.

That's a VERY telling story. If he isn't inspecting by code, what DOES he use for a guideline?
 

timf67

New User
Tim
That's a VERY telling story. If he isn't inspecting by code, what DOES he use for a guideline?

My guess is that he could tell that the ground was added after the fact and decided to call it out rather than take any chances with it. Most inspectors are in CYA mode these days...
 
M

McRabbet

Not trying to steal the thread, but I need to tell you my home inspections story -- we bought a new home in Woodcroft on the south side of Durham in 1985 and when I retired in 2003, we spent time fixing up everything we could imagine that would be required -- we replaced some thermopane windows that had lost their interior gas; repainted the entire interior; repaired and refinished all of the hardwood floors; replaced gutters that were suspect; replaced some exterior trim that had some minor dry rot and so on. When it went on the market and we got a sales contract, the buyer's home inspector found that the trim up our 30'-plus high chimney had shown apparent movement toward the house, which he interpreted as the chimney moving away from the house due to settling of the foundation under the chimney. They insisted that a company come in and jack the chimney back to close the gap (for which I paid over $2,000). The company drove several 3" diameter steel piers 30 feet into the ground and literally jacked the chimney up from under the 12-15" thick slab that formed its foundation. They closed the gap all right -- it cracked the wallboard around the fireplace and in our bedroom above it which I had to repair and repaint. I tried to argue that the chimney never moved; that the gap was caused by normal shrinkage of the house wood framing over an eighteen year period and the house moved away from the chimney, not vice-versa. Our Realtor (with a sale in hand) wouldn't let me make the argument and the rest is history (and less return on our original investment). Ironically, the people that bought the house (and who insisted on every nit-picking detail in their home inspection report), got a divorce less than a year after they bought the house!
 

junquecol

Bruce
Senior User
I would ask inspector for something in WRITING that shows these aren't allowed. Call the state certification board for building inspectors and see if he is even allowed to do this. It is a "Professional Opinion, " and he most likely would have to have either a PE, or a General Contractor's licensee. The Dept of Insurance can tell if these are "legal." Write to them, as they will have to reply by letter. Remind him that house passed inspection when it was built, and there have been no changes. That is all that is required.
 

Charlottend

New User
Brian
Thanks for all of the great advice. Now that it's almost normal business hours it sounds like I have a lot of calls to make. I'll keep you posted onwhat I find out.

Brian
 

mkepke

Mark
Senior User
Disallowing due to "compression" doesn't make sense to me. OSB must be under compression in 90% of the homes built after 1980 because in modern houses, the first floor is decked (with OSB), then the stud walls are erected on top of the OSB.

I could see it due to concerns with the semi-damp location.

Unfortunately, this is probably not a situation where "what's best ?" or even "what's to code ?" is going to cut it. What's it going to take to make the sellers remove the conditions on the sale ?

-Mark
 

Charlottend

New User
Brian
So the same inspector that told us it was ok on Friday, is now saying its not based on a code interpretation he found this morning. Only issue is that the interpretation wasn't issued until January 2008 for the 2006 version of the code. So prior to that it wasn't spelled out, and therefore was left up to the individual inspector's interpretation.

The interpretation leaves open a window that says an architect or engineer can say otherwise if a lower grade of material is used.

Since I can't imagine jacking up the house to replace the shims, and probably cracking plenty of drywall, I think that's the next step. Of course that's what everyone here was recommending from the get go :). Thanks again for the advice everyone.
 

SteveHall

Steve
Corporate Member
You aren't required to repair items discovered by the buyer's inspector. It is up to the buyer if they think it is important enough to either require that it be repaired prior to purchase or settle on a lower price. You can always refuse and they can always move on. If they back out, their inspection becomes part of the record and is transmitted to the next potential buyer, but if the items really aren't that big a deal, most buyers will live with it.

As for me (architect), I'd have to see the shims for myself. Are they rotting or coming apart? Do they provide full bearing contact between the joists and the foundation? Wood is 10x stronger parallel to the grain, but remember that most structural members (joists, plates) are on their side. Only columns, studs, and trusses use the strength of wood in the "correct" direction.

Most home structural failures are either soil failure (below the foundation) or poor construction detailing (ie, somebody sawed through a truss, joist, stud, etc. :) ). I personally would have very little concern with 13 year old wood shims that show no sign of problems or moisture as long as they provide full bearing dimension for the member they are supporting. Remember, platform framed houses entirely rest on plates that rest on floor sheathing, which is often... OSB.

(PS -- The chief concern with light (indeed most) construction is uplift or outside lateral forces, not gravity. Think about it, have you ever seen a house that simply collapsed under it's own weight? Probably not. But we've all seen plenty of houses damaged by trees, wind, water, and bad soil.)
 

Charlottend

New User
Brian
Good news. My measurements convinced the buyer that replacements weren't needed. So after 10 days of going back and forth they signed the papers. Thanks for the help everyone.
 

Glennbear

Moderator
Glenn
I am gal it worked out Brian :eusa_clap When I was selling my house in NJ I had some hair pulling moments involving the buyer's inspector and the main basement beam. :confused_
 
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