European Combo Machines? Hammer, Laguna...

[jamie]

Hi all-

Does anyone here have any experience with the 4 or 5 way combo machines?
The top contenders are the Hammer c3-31, and the Laguna Platinum 10". I understand that the features on the machines aren't the same, and the price definitely isn't either. Does anyone have any firsthand experience with either of these machines?

I was going to include a boring backstory, but decided to just skip it and ask the question...

Here are links to the machines in question:

• Laguna Platinum 10"
• Hammer c3-31

I am really more interested in comments about the Laguna. What I really want is the hammer, but my wife said "There is no way we are spending $10k on a hammer!"

Is the laguna well built? Have they gotten over their QC issues? does it work well? does the way the jointer flips cause a problem or inconvenience?

I would appreciate any & all feedback!

I should note that my three OTHER options are:

• Buy nothing, and crab about it.
• Stick with my TS and buy:
  • Just an 8" jointer, keeping my ridgid planer
  • A Hammer a3-31, getting rid of my ridgid planer

While the 8" is the cheapest option, it also would eat up alot of scarce floorspace-- so I have to take that into consideration.

(my other option was to build a dedicated shop, but that plan was nixed by the loml before it even got out of the starting gate!)

Thanks!

 

[dino drosas]

I cannot comment directly about Hammer or Laguna but I have owned a Felder combination machine for the last twenty years. I have had four diffferent generations of combos starting in 1989; always bought used at about half the retail price and have never had an issue with any of the machines. Being that Hammer is the lower priced Felder machine I can tell you that there is no question about the quality built into the machines. First, stay away from the Robland. Second, In all my time with these machines, I have never heard Laguna compared more favorably to a hammer. Neither of the two companys have a great reputation for customer service, but I have never had an issue with either ( I have a Laguna 24" band saw). If I were you, I would take my time and locate a good used Felder. Trick is to find one not so far away! They are out there and in your price range. Once you get one you will never regret it. Travis recently mentioned that he may be selling his or he may have just been blowing smoke; LMAO. If I can help, let me know as I see machines for sale quite often. My machines are pictured in me photos.

 

[lottathought]

You might want to drop a note to rbdoby (Rick).
I know he has a euro combo machine.
He could probably tell you something about them.

 

[Adirondax]

Can't help you with the Hammer or Laguna but I've had a Minimax CU300 for about 5 years and am very happy with it.

I love the jointer/planer and the TERSA knives. I can change all 3 knives in under two minutes. They're self-setting so no fiddling with gibs and straight edges to get everything aligned. Changeover from jointer to planer takes less than a minute. You do you have to crank the planer bed up cause it's about 4" below the knives after changeover. But it's not a big deal.

Having the combo forced me to rethink my workflow and my shop layout and it's been a very positive experience for the most part. I started with a 6" Jet jointer and a Dewalt benchtop planer. After a year or so, I moved to a Jet 8" jointer for another year, then finally to the combo. I was fortunate enough to have the funds to swing the upgrade. Given my limited shop space (19' x 19' garage), it was a good move.

If you're ever in the Triad area and want to play, let me know!

 

[rbdoby]

Jamie,

I do not have any experience with Hammer, but I've owned a Robland X31 since 1998 that I got from Laguna. It is my workhorse, I've used it to build everything from small jewelry boxes to kitchen cabinets with it. The few problems I've had with it were mainly due to my own inexperience. Any mechanical problems I've had Laguna is good about helping me and getting me the parts.

Laguna has made several improvements with the Platinum Series that I would like to have but my X31 is like an old friend, it still works well and it is paid for.

Working with either one of the machines your are looking at will take a little different approach than working with 5 separate machines. Take a little time to plan your milling operations so you do not have keep switching the machine set back and forth. It only takes a few seconds to switch from jointing to planning. Setting up the shaper and the mortising attachment takes a little longer. The last time I tuned up the machine was about 4 years ago and it is still running true. I like the fact that the machine takes a lot less space that 5 separate machines. It is not small, it weighs 1,000 lbs. but it is mobile and I can move it fairly easily when needed.

European combination machines are definitely different than the machines normally used here in the US. My biggest complaint is that most of the after market accessories sold here will NOT fit these machines (my miter slot on the table saw is dovetailed) so you get good at making your own jigs and fixtures. The thing I like the most about my machine is the sliding table.

If you are really interested in getting a European combination machine you are more than welcome to come and test drive mine. It's not the same one your are looking at but the concept is the same. You may want to play with one a little bit before making up your mind.

Rick Doby

 

[Bernhard]

Ditto what Dino said.
I have a Felder Combo with a 10' sliding table. Before I decided on a particular brand I looked each one of them (Laguna, Robland, Knapp, Hammer, Felder and a couple of others (can't remember the names)). With the exception of the Robland, all are good IMHO. I just thought that Felder had the best price to value ratio.

Overall I am very happy with the quality, fit anf finish, etc. One other advantage is the FOG (Felder's Owner Group) on yahoo. There is a wealth of info there. The group is very active and very knowledgeable; has a good mix of hobbyists and professionals on it.

I have one regret: I should have bought separate machines instead of the full combo. While changeover is not a big deal, it is at times a pita. Had I the opportunity to do it over again, I would purchase a saw/shaper combo and a planer/jointer combo. The saw/shaper combo is nice since you can use the sliding table on the shaper.

Anyway, my 2 cents.
PS you are welcome to stop by and kick the tires.
Cheers,
Bernhard

 

[jamie]

Ditto what Dino said.
I have a Felder Combo with a 10' sliding table. Before I decided on a particular brand I looked each one of them (Laguna, Robland, Knapp, Hammer, Felder and a couple of others (can't remember the names)). With the exception of the Robland, all are good IMHO. I just thought that Felder had the best price to value ratio.

Overall I am very happy with the quality, fit anf finish, etc. One other advantage is the FOG (Felder's Owner Group) on yahoo. There is a wealth of info there. The group is very active and very knowledgeable; has a good mix of hobbyists and professionals on it.

I have one regret: I should have bought separate machines instead of the full combo. While changeover is not a big deal, it is at times a pita. Had I the opportunity to do it over again, I would purchase a saw/shaper combo and a planer/jointer combo. The saw/shaper combo is nice since you can use the sliding table on the shaper.

Anyway, my 2 cents.
PS you are welcome to stop by and kick the tires.
Cheers,
Bernhard

Well, felder was the first choice, hands down, but also pushed right out because of funds (or lack thereof)

Given the monetary situation, I am thinking the same way right now. J/P now, shaper/slider when the time comes (and a festool plunge saw in the meantime). One thing that I would be giving up with the c3-31 vs the felders is the tilting shaper (the c3 doesn't).

The fit & finish of the felder/hammer machines seems better from looking at the video & pics and what-not.

 

[jamie]

Can't help you with the Hammer or Laguna but I've had a Minimax CU300 for about 5 years and am very happy with it.

I love the jointer/planer and the TERSA knives. I can change all 3 knives in under two minutes. They're self-setting so no fiddling with gibs and straight edges to get everything aligned. Changeover from jointer to planer takes less than a minute. You do you have to crank the planer bed up cause it's about 4" below the knives after changeover. But it's not a big deal.

Having the combo forced me to rethink my workflow and my shop layout and it's been a very positive experience for the most part. I started with a 6" Jet jointer and a Dewalt benchtop planer. After a year or so, I moved to a Jet 8" jointer for another year, then finally to the combo. I was fortunate enough to have the funds to swing the upgrade. Given my limited shop space (19' x 19' garage), it was a good move.

If you're ever in the Triad area and want to play, let me know!

Thanks for the offer-

Minimax was on the list too, but their website isn't as easy to get information off of.

Did you get the mortiser, also? My shop is very limited too. I have (what they CALL) a 3 car garage, but really only have access to one of the bays.

 

[Adirondax]

Did you get the mortiser, also?

Yes. It's a 5-machine combo: 5' slider (8' wouldn't fit my shop anyway and I don't use a lot of plywood), shaper, j/p and mortiser. I built a mobile stand for the mortiser and have it off the machine since it tended to get in the way of the jointing operation. But I used it to build a chest of drawers for my daughter (floating tenons) and it worked fine.

I'll add that dust collection is excellent. I use 6" hoses and it was a trick getting the fittings needed to fit the different sized ports on the machine. Why they are different sizes, I have no idea. I also love the riving knife on the t-saw. That pretty much eliminates kickback and it's easy to remove when necessary.

Whatever you get, I think you'll enjoy it once you get acclimated to the process.

 

[jamie]

Yes. It's a 5-machine combo: 5' slider (8' wouldn't fit my shop anyway and I don't use a lot of plywood), shaper, j/p and mortiser. I built a mobile stand for the mortiser and have it off the machine since it tended to get in the way of the jointing operation. But I used it to build a chest of drawers for my daughter (floating tenons) and it worked fine.

I'll add that dust collection is excellent. I use 6" hoses and it was a trick getting the fittings needed to fit the different sized ports on the machine. Why they are different sizes, I have no idea. I also love the riving knife on the t-saw. That pretty much eliminates kickback and it's easy to remove when necessary.

Whatever you get, I think you'll enjoy it once you get acclimated to the process.

Well, since I only have a table saw and lunchbox planer now, there isn't much of a "process" :rotflm:

 

[Travis Porter]

I am a Felder owner, albeit still a somewhat new Felder owner.

Dino, I was blowing smoke. ;-)

I will say it takes some getting used to having a sliding table combo machine. Mine is a tablesaw/planer combination. I drove about 1000 miles to get it (first mistake) and then about a month later a brand new one came available less than 200 miles away (2nd mistake).

As for th Felder, and I believe Hammer would be the same way, the fit and finish are second to none. I have never seen a machine with so much adjustability. That can also be an issue as if you screw with it too much, you will get it out of alignment.

Personally, I like having the shaper/tablesaw combo, and I don't think I would want a full 5 machine combo. I prefer to have my jointer/planer separate. I could visualize having a jointer/planer combo unit though. Doug Robinson has the Jet and it looks like a very nice unit and I believe he has been happy with it.

The one thing to get used to with most Euro machines is using metric tooling. Felders an Hammers take blades with 30 mm arbors. You won't be going to Woodcraft or Klingspor to get a blade.

The other comments on customer service seem right on to me. Around a year or so ago I ordered some stuff for my Felder I believe in November. I received the order in February. I figured they had forgotten it so I am glad I didn't order anything anywhere else. I have had the same issues with Minimax on my bandsaw. I called and was told repair parts would be shipped and a week and a day later the parts guy called wanting to know what parts I needed. I have heard negative comments on Laguna, but have no first hand experience.Personally, I would think these specialty companies would do better as this is their bread and butter. Who knows.

My suggestion before buying one is to try one out.

 

[Bernhard]

Well, felder was the first choice, hands down, but also pushed right out because of funds (or lack thereof)

Given the monetary situation, I am thinking the same way right now. J/P now, shaper/slider when the time comes (and a festool plunge saw in the meantime). One thing that I would be giving up with the c3-31 vs the felders is the tilting shaper (the c3 doesn't).

The fit & finish of the felder/hammer machines seems better from looking at the video & pics and what-not.

Jamie,
You may want to call Felder/Hammer again. Felder is apparently moving/consolidating their California distribution center. Felder wants to move all machines out and is offering pretty good discounts. If you are serious you may want to talk to Rich Williams at Felder; they have a good selections of Hammer and Felder equipment ready to go (apparently they need to vacate their current premises by end of the months). I had my eye on a lineborer, but missed out.

...just trying to be an enabler

Cheers,

Bernhard

 

[jamie]

Jamie,
You may want to call Felder/Hammer again. Felder is apparently moving/consolidating their California distribution center. Felder wants to move all machines out and is offering pretty good discounts. If you are serious you may want to talk to Rich Williams at Felder; they have a good selections of Hammer and Felder equipment ready to go (apparently they need to vacate their current premises by end of the months). I had my eye on a lineborer, but missed out.

...just trying to be an enabler

Cheers,

Bernhard

That is where my deal came from. I am now leaning towards separates, to start out with the a3, and move to a felder saw/shaper later.

The price difference between the 31 & 41 is pretty substantial. Anyone regret not just getting the 16"? Not that I need it NOW, but who knows...