Dust Collection

Luckbox72

New User
Eric
I have a Delta 50-760 and have had it for about 11 years. I was looking to either upgrade it or replace it. I have a simple setup in my garage so I don't have the space or need to setup a central dust collector and then pipe everything in. I have all my equipment on wheels and I wheel out each piece as I need and when down wheel it back to it place in the garage. So I was looking at the Oneida Mini-Gorilla Portable Cyclone Dust Collector and while it would take up less space and I would get a 2 stage cyclone system< I am not sure if it would really be an upgrade. I have a 30 gallon trash can separator setup right now. I was thinking about possibly removing the bag and replace with a Cartridge Filter. Oneida sells a HEPA Cartridge Filter Upgrade Kit, Dust Collector HEPA Cartridge Filter Upgrade Kit, which looking at the basic specs on the site appears would fit. I was then thinking maybe to add the Super Dust Deputy. But the issue I have is the height. I would like to have it still fit within the same footprint that it currently takes up.
Trying to figure out if I should just but the Mini-Gorilla Portable Cyclone Dust Collector and sell my current. I would have a smaller footprint, the HEPA filter, Cyclone Dust Collector, and easy to clean setup. Or do I save the money, keep the current Delta, and get the HEPA Upgrade, and try to figure out how to get a setup with the dust deputy to fit in the cart. I would need to find or build some container that would fit in the cart. I really don't have the sape nor do I want to have an external canister.
 

cobraguy

Clay
Corporate Member
A pleated filter is a definite upgrade to your system. The increased filter area effectively increases your cubic feet per minute, CFM. Airflow, CFM, is what dust collection is all about and why shop vacs, with their their small hoses, often just don't cut it. I would suggest looking at Wynn Environmental for your pleated filter before pulling the trigger on the HEPA. Besides saving you about $30, they also provide some good info on filtration testing and standards, ie, the difference between MERV, HEPA, and other industry standards. Their filters are MERV 15 and are 99.99% effective. BL: I'm sure the Oneida HEPA will give you an improvement in airflow and air quality, but shop around a bit.
 

junquecol

Bruce
Senior User
Have you thought about adding a Thien baffle to the ring, along with a filter. Phil's site has some examples of this. Doesn't increase your DC's foot print, which is always important.
 

Alan in Little Washington

Alan Schaffter
Corporate Member
Frankly, you are wasting your money "upgrading" with just a cartridge filter without adding decent separator- the dust that coats the inside of your bag now (that you likely shake down regularly) will lodge in and clog the filter pleats where it will be harder to remove. Some of it will permanently clog the media. Also, that dust and the cleaning process to remove it can permanently damage the filter media. So At the very least, before getting a cartridge filter, get a good separator. Both the Oneida and Delta units have the same size motor (1.5 hp), though the impeller on the Oneida is .5" larger in diameter, so should pull a tad bit more air. The filter area of the Oneida is only 40 sq ft- a bit small.

If you up are for a little tinkering (there are plenty of how-to articles and videos on the web), want to save money, and have a system comparable to the Oneida Mini-Gorilla Portable Cyclone Dust Collector, my suggestion is get the separator only (Super Dust Deputy- DIY cyclone only or similar (Ebay?), or build your own) , buy a cartridge filter from Wynn Environmental, and use your Delta 760 motor/blower. Only you can weigh the cost vs effort required for each option.
 

blackhawk

Brad
Corporate Member
Frankly, you are wasting your money "upgrading" with just a cartridge filter without adding decent separator- the dust that coats the inside of your bag now (that you likely shake down regularly) will lodge in and clog the filter pleats where it will be harder to remove. Some of it will permanently clog the media. Also, that dust and the cleaning process to remove it can permanently damage the filter media. So At the very least, before getting a cartridge filter, get a good separator. Both the Oneida and Delta units have the same size motor (1.5 hp), though the impeller on the Oneida is .5" larger in diameter, so should pull a tad bit more air. The filter area of the Oneida is only 40 sq ft- a bit small.

I have to respectfully disagree with part of Alan's statement about the "waste of money" without having a separator based on my personal experience. I have a 2HP grizzly dust collector with a Thien baffle and a Wynn cartridge filter. I do not use any type of separator. I have been running it this way for over 5 years with the same filter and it still pulls markedly better than the original cloth bag. I suck up a lot of dust as it is used with my 4X8 CNC, along with all my other tools. I clean the filter by tapping on the outside with my hands all around 2 to 3 times about once a week. About once a month, I'll remove the hose above the Thien baffle and use my hand to flap around the pleats on the inside. You get a pretty dusty arm but it works well. A separator is definitely the way to go if you have room, which is the only reason that I don't have one.
 

JimD

Jim
Senior User
The ceiling of my shop is only 8 feet. I have room for a dust bin over 4 feet tall under my 2hp HF motor/blower and Oneida super dust deputy. Mine is bolted to the wall in a corner and the dust bin wheels out for emptying. I like that arrangement but I also have a dedicated garage for my shop so I can run metal duct around the shop to the tools. It would not be hard to build a simple frame about 18x18 to mount things on and arrange things vertically like I have them.

Thein baffles versus cyclones comes up frequently. I used to have a thein baffle and it separated chips well but did not separate fine dust very well. So I had to clean the filter more often. Cyclones separate fine dust better - but they take up more space than thein baffles.

I think your Delta is similar to my HF, possibly more capable. I doubt you would gain much if any performance from the Oneida mini gorilla. I would buy the pieces and build the cart if you really want it to roll around. An Oneida system would look better, however, and if that is important to you and you have the money, it is certainly a viable option. I think the dust bin is pretty small, however, so if you run a jointer or planner much you will be emptying it often.
 

gator

George
Corporate Member
Like Jim I have my motor/impeller mounted on the wall so I can use a trash can separator under it and not lose floor space. I replaced the upper bag with one from AFF. I do have permanent piping but with flex hose in a small shop it should work. GO GATORS
 

Alan in Little Washington

Alan Schaffter
Corporate Member
I have to respectfully disagree with part of Alan's statement about the "waste of money" without having a separator based on my personal experience. I have a 2HP grizzly dust collector with a Thien baffle and a Wynn cartridge filter. I do not use any type of separator. I have been running it this way for over 5 years with the same filter and it still pulls markedly better than the original cloth bag. I suck up a lot of dust as it is used with my 4X8 CNC, along with all my other tools. I clean the filter by tapping on the outside with my hands all around 2 to 3 times about once a week. About once a month, I'll remove the hose above the Thien baffle and use my hand to flap around the pleats on the inside. You get a pretty dusty arm but it works well. A separator is definitely the way to go if you have room, which is the only reason that I don't have one.

Hmmm, don't you suppose your Thien baffle is a "separator"??????? You'll notice I didn't use the term "cyclone" separator. So it appears, in reality, you agree with me. :rolleyes: Oh, and by the way, with all the tapping and hand flapping the pleats, you are damaging the filter media.
 

blackhawk

Brad
Corporate Member
Alan can you give more details on what exact damage that I am causing to my filter media? Maybe some technical details or some pictures? Manufacturers such as Grizzly make many cartridge filters with a built in flapper mechanism. As I mentioned, I have been using my cartridge filter for over 6 years and I have never seen any degradation of the filter material or noticed any difference in particles passing through the filter. I do CNC routing as a semi-professional so my dust collection sees a lot of use.
 

cobraguy

Clay
Corporate Member
Brad, this from the Wynn Environmental website.

"Q: Do any of your filters have cranks with paddles?
A: No. Paddles rub the filter media and pin-hole leaks will develop. Our filters incorporate the same filter media used in large industrial systems. This filter media is designed to be cleaned using compressed air.
Q: Are your filters washable?
A: No, we do not recommend washing. Our woodworking filters are cleaned-down from the outside with about 60 PSI of compressed air. Just use your blow-off nozzle."

Like you, I have a Wynn filter on top of a HF motor. I blow the filter every time I empty the bag. Make sure your bag/collection container under the filter is in place during the process and there is no additional dust released during cleaning. It just falls into your container. Works well.
 

Oka

Casey
Corporate Member
Ok I am going to chime in , as Const Mgr for an HVAC Company this is something I deal with a lot, as such, an average Hospital boxcar air handler can average 40-50k a year in replacement filters. That said, this is a straight forward easy issue to solve. Either the Thein of Cyclone will work. If the system is going to handle multiple machines simultaneously the Cyclone scales up better.
Whether you use a Thein or Cyclone just depends on what your objective is. The Air bag filters relies on dust remaining in the bag to help trap dust leaving the bag out in to the shop. It is not a great filter but does get most of the dust.
So:
1. Think how much/big the system you want or need. Keep in mind will you expand ? if so, then design in for that expansion now to prevent costly rework.
2. Think how clean do you want it to be ? Dust free? then define what dust free is to you. Then aim for the filtration to accomplish that.
3. Now you know your ideal/goal for the system you want. Now, look at your budget. Then decide how to proceed.
Remember, dust collection if done right for the most part, is a one time investment.
The filter on top of the dust collector will not get all the dust in a shop out, you will need a filter box to get the really fine dust if you want perfection, but it will get get it to a place most people will be satisfied for their needs.
HVAC Trivia- MERV and HEPA, you can look up the comparison on the net, but to compare MERV rating- above 12 is the lower end of HEPA Typically high end HEPA system will require MERV 13 or above.

Last thing- Air movement and flow is not linear. As woodworkers, this is hard to accept.
All the science and theory is based off Bernoulli principle of air flow. If you are into it, I would recommend watching the Khan's academy YouTube video it is excellent. But, it definitely will exercise your math brain. Sorry, got long winded here....... like my dad always said "never use a long word when a short one will suffice" ......... :p
 

Alan in Little Washington

Alan Schaffter
Corporate Member
Clay pretty much summed it up. Not all filter media is the same- some are synthetic or cellulose, woven, non-woven, spun-bonded, etc. and coated or non-coated- all can break down. Just like clothing, they wear out over time, so you don't want to hasten that by beating it or flapping it. Wood dust can be abrasive, especially woods such as Teak, etc. that have high silica content. (did you know they clean jet engines and steam turbines by "blasting" them with ground walnut shells- removes the deposits but doesn't hurt the titanium- filters aren't made of titanium :rolleyes: .) Unfortunately, however, compressed air can damage filter media, too, if the pressure is too high. Think about this- why do you suppose some retail systems with a cartridge filter, even those with separators, come with a filter beater bar, and why do they often recommend using it after or before every session- the answer is because there is no separation or their separator is essentially worthless so the filter clogs.

Dust collection is a continuum- it starts with a coal shovel and a barrel, and ends with super cyclones HEPA filters and the operator wearing a mask or breathing air from a clean source. If you just want to collect heavy dust and chips for a modestly cleaner shop, almost any system will do. But, if your goal is to protect your lungs then you gotta climb the mountain. We each have our own threshold of what is acceptable as well as what we are willing to pay.

Most commercial dust collectors transport the chips and dust outside the shop were there may be some sort of separation, crude cyclone etc. and/or a filter "bag house" equipped with shakers. Exhaust air with any residual dust is released, rather harmlessly, outside. Due to EPA standards that is getting harder to do. It is not hard to spot cyclone separators at factories.

Hobby woodworkers, are one of the few groups who try, not only to separate out the chips and fine dust, they try to recycle the air (and BTU's) back to their shops- the hardest thing to do. The "best" system, with potentially the highest CFM is one where everything is exhausted outside with no CFM-stealing separators or filters (and where loss of BTU's or cooling air is not a consideration. That is hard to achieve unless you don't have neighbors. If clouds of dust are a problem due to neighbors, clothes lines, etc., the next best system is one with a separator, but no filter, but still discharges outside. The more restrictions to air flow, the lower the CFM.

That brings up the issue of HEPA filters. For the best collection of fine dust, you need the highest CFM you can generate at each machine- putting a HEPA filter in the system works against that goal and it doesn't matter where the filter is located in the system. Rather than smaller holes, HEPA filters have a specially designed filter media matrix (which is why they are more expensive), to filter out very fine dust, but despite that, they still add a lot of resistance to air flow in the system. One way to mitigate that is to increase the area (square feet) of filter media. You'll notice many of the Donaldson-Torrit and Wynn cartridge filters typically used in 2 - 3 hp DC systems have media areas around 200- 300 sq. ft. Even the filters Wynn sells to replace the bag on a single stage dust collector are in that range. Compare that with the cartridge filters sold with most of the smaller retail 1.5hp roll-around DC units like the Oneida Mini Gorilla - only 40 sq. ft.!!! Somewhere, maybe on Bill Pentz's website, there is a rule of thumb for filter area vs CFM.
 

McRabbet

Rob
Corporate Member
I'd like to add my comment following Alan's excellent post and it concerns cyclones with flappers on their filters. In every case I've looked at, the flappers are there because the first stage is inefficient and excessive amounts of dust does not get removed from the airstream and passes through the blower to the filter bank. The geometry of the cone section in the cyclone really makes a major difference and many of the smaller cyclones have short cone sections that are poor separators. Designs like the original shop built model featured in Wood magazine decades ago and the entire Pentz family of cyclones (ClearVue Cyclones) all have long cone sections that are more than 99.9% efficiency in the cyclone and have very minor pass-through of dust into the filters. Many of the Grizzly, JDS, Laguna and Jet cyclones fall far short and feature flappers because the filters clog rapidly. Some of these even feature small motors to keep the flappers running whenever the unit is running. BTW, I have a ClearVue because of its removal efficiency, especially with the finest dust particles.
 

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