Dust collection advice request

[SabertoothBunny]

Home remodel happening and it includes my main workspace so right now it is empty. This allows me the opportunity to plan putting it back together and I intend to add actual dust protection beyond a simple shop vac and cluttered mess in the roughly 400-500sq ft of space. The intent it make cleaning up my wood turning, band saw and drill press messes.

My intent is to purchased this as it should be enough to cover my needs:

WEN DC1300 1,300 CFM 14-Amp 5-Micron Woodworking Dust Collector with 50-Gallon Collection Bag and Mobile BaseIndividual

Circulate up to 1,300 cubic feet of air per minute Attach up to two tools at a time with the dual 4-inch air inlets Vertical collection bag holds up to 50 gallons of dust 14-amp motor rotates the 10-inch steel impeller up to 3450 RPM Includes mobile base with four swivel casters for easy...

wenproducts.com

But I also saw this:

Dust Right 4'' Wall-Mount Cyclone Dust Separator

Convert your single-stage dust collector into an efficient two-stage system and reduce the need for frequent bag emptying with our Wall-Mount Cyclone Dust Separator.

www.rockler.com

If I put this cyclone dust separator between the dust collector and my tools, will it hurt the dust collection overall or will it not really hinder airflow? It is easier to change the bag out on the cyclone system from Rockler than the large bag on a dust collection system but I don't want to lose performance. Yes, I will eventually have to empty the bag on the large system but not as often. I hope to make a final decision today so any input from the more experienced here would be greatly apprecated.

 

[Mike Davis]

I have a powermatic dust collector with a trash can separator. To me any loss of suction is offset by the convenience of emptying the trash can over trying to get the bag off and back on the collector.

 

[Bill Clemmons]

Mike makes an excellent point. Think about the convenience/aggravation of emptying the dust when it is full. A barrel is easier than a bag. Also, where you put it in the shop makes a difference. Put it close to the exit door rather than all the way in the back of the shop where you have to drag it through the entire shop each time.

If you're putting in permanent/fixed duct work, add at least 1 (preferably 2) floor sweeps. I have 4 in my shop and wish I had 6. They make clean up very convenient.

 

[SabertoothBunny]

Mike makes an excellent point. Think about the convenience/aggravation of emptying the dust when it is full. A barrel is easier than a bag. Also, where you put it in the shop makes a difference. Put it close to the exit door rather than all the way in the back of the shop where you have to drag it through the entire shop each time.

If you're putting in permanent/fixed duct work, add at least 1 (preferably 2) floor sweeps. I have 4 in my shop and wish I had 6. They make clean up very convenient.

Have an example of a floor sweep to show? Or something akin to this?

Amazon.com

 

[Bill Clemmons]

Have an example of a floor sweep to show? Or something akin to this?

Amazon.com

Yes, like that. Not sure I would buy the whole kit, unless you need all the connectors. Here is another example from Klingspor of just the sweep.

 

[NCPAPAOF2]

I have a Grizzly 2hp running on 220 v. I used 6" hvac duct in reverse direction. Reduced to 4" for tablesaw, drill press, bandsaw, mitersaw, and sanding center. Collector is in small addition to shop with a 30 gal compressor. Shop is not heated or cooled. Works very well and not terribly hard to construct.

 

[Canuck]

I send my sawdust out with trash along with the bag.

Found that the clear 55 gallon drum liners from Home Depot fit my Jet Vortex dust collector just fine!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-55-Gal-Clear-Heavy-Duty-Trash-Bags-Flap-Tie-Drum-Liner-40-Count-HDR55WC040C/322194468

( Pricing the bags I found that I was paying $4.50/bag for the Jet branded bags vs $.65/bag for the HD clear drum liners!)

Just an FYI

Wayne

 

[Echd]

I use an Oneida cyclone that drops into a 30 gallon barrel. Objectively it does reduce suction somewhat but I do not think anyone can say how much without examining your setup once it is in place... far too many variables.

Personally I work out of my 2 car garage (really 0 cars, because cars don't belong in garages, power tools do) and I use a flexible hose and move it between machines.

That said whatever you give up with the cyclone you can make up by installing a cartridge style filter. That will be enormously beneficial for cleanliness and air quality, and massively improves airflow over a bag and therefore suction. I use a Donaldson truck filter. I forget what the rating is but the merv rating was comparable to Wynn filters at the time I bought it. I would expect particulates from a truck to be much smaller than the vast majority of wood waste after all.

It is also so much easier to dump a barrel than fighting those bags in place. I replaced the bag with a five gallon bucket attached with an alpha seal lid so it just screws in and out on the occasions I neglect my barrel and overflow it, which I have done... more than I like to admit.

When i'm not an idiot it collects fines perfectly. You can fill the barrel 5 to 10 times over and have only a quarter or a third way full bucket of fine dust. That said depending on what you do that will vary... bandsawing or the like will generate a lot of fines, a planer or jointer not so much.

 

[Rwe2156]

@SabertoothBunny, yes a cyclone will degrade performance, some people say 20-30%.

You need to provide more information, the main one being is your shop climate controlled? I ask that b/c if you cannot exhaust outside that greatly changes the equation.

Be aware the advertised CFM's are practically a theoretical number. That WEN is probably actually only pulling 800 at a machine.

A lathe is pretty hard to collect, you need a lot of CFM's for that. Band saws and drill presses can be collected with a shop vac. Speaking of which, I have two dedicated shop vacs, one for my table saw guard, and one for my stationary 6x10 sander. I use the DeWalt Stealthsonic vacs and they unbelievably quiet. Both have mini cyclones.

I have a ducted system similar to @NCPAPAOF2, but with a Jet 1.5HP blower and Super Dust Deputy cyclone. 6" ducts. In theory it shouldn't work, but it does. I think what makes this work is exhausting outside.

I'm no expert, but if the cobbled together system I have works, I figure I must know something.

Dust collection is very expensive, for some people more expensive than their machines. At one time I was considering an Oneida Supercell, but I hear they are quite noisy.

 

[Westpacx3]

In regards to cartridge filters. I think the ones with the flapper and handle attached are worth it. Mine does not have it and taking it all down to blow out is a little bit of a pain. Not sure the price difference though.

 

[gator]

Have you seen this?

For Sale - WoodTek Full dust collection system (dust collector, solid duct work, several fittings, blast gates, and chip separators).

I am downsizing and would like to sell this before my wife starts screaming. For pick up only. 3 Horsepower Woodtek Dust Collector (115/220 volts single phase) Oversized felt collection bags Several runs of rigid duct work with many reducers, transitions, blast gates, and termination caps...

ncwoodworker.net

 

[SabertoothBunny]

Have you seen this?

For Sale - WoodTek Full dust collection system (dust collector, solid duct work, several fittings, blast gates, and chip separators).

I am downsizing and would like to sell this before my wife starts screaming. For pick up only. 3 Horsepower Woodtek Dust Collector (115/220 volts single phase) Oversized felt collection bags Several runs of rigid duct work with many reducers, transitions, blast gates, and termination caps...

ncwoodworker.net

I have and, unfortunately, the dust collector is too large for my space.

 

[oldtexasdog]

I did a Laguna but added a trash can collector. As stated it makes it very convenient to empty and has worked very well..

 

[Charles Lent]

No space for a big dust collector in my 14 X 26' shop either. I was using shop vacs, but wished I had better. Then they were remodeling the house next door and I saw the central vacuum unit headed for the dumpster and said "Can I have that"? He said it didn't work and I replied "I'll fix it". Over the next week all of the vacuum piping, hose, and tools began showing up at my shop. It was an easy fix, as the control transformer in the vacuum had gone bad. A $10 doorbell transformer from Lowes fixed it. I ended up installing it in the attic of my shop and piping lines and inlet ports in several places in my shop, and attic, plus one at the shop entrance so I could vacuum the cars and truck with it. I also added a Dust Deputy and 25 gallon metal (former grease barrel) under it (the grease comes inside, but in a plastic bag, so almost no cleaning was needed).

I use this vacuum for all of my small saw dust producers and it has proven to be quite effective. The table saw, jointer, and planers make bigger chips, so have their own collection in their cabinets. Only the scroll saws, drill presses, sanders, etc have their saw dust collected by this vacuum system and the shop floor and outdoor cars and truck get vacuumed with this unit too. The Dust Deputy has proven to remove all but the finest saw dust, but I ported the exhaust from this vacuum out through the soffit of the shop roof, so none of the saw dust, even the micro dust, ever makes it back into my shop. It has been a great idea, and while it isn't big enough to use with the table saw, jointer, and planer, it does fit and work well in my shop for the dangerous finest of saw dust, and it didn't require any of my shop floor space to install it. The pipes are in the walls and ceiling and the unit itself is in the shop attic. I have only needed to dump the barrel twice since installation. For the fine saw dust, it just doesn't fill very quickly. Nothing but a thin layer of dust (about what you wipe off a table in the house) ever collects in the lower container of the central vacuum. I ended up removing the fabric filter and just let this dust blow out through the exhaust to the outdoors. The micro fine dust was going straight through this filter any way, and I increased the flow a bit by removing it.

Those of you with small shops should keep an eye out for one of these whole house vacuums. Though they aren't a complete solution to your saw dust problems, they do take care of all but the largest saw dust producers and the finest saw dust is the most dangerous health wise. Even a shop vac won't filter out the dangerous ultra fine saw dust that is a significant health hazard. I shovel out my table saw cabinet and jointer cabinet when it is needed. The planer, a DeWalt 735 gets used outside the shop and I have a hose attachment and 60 gallon plastic barrel to collect the chips from it.


Charley

 

[JimD]

This may be too late but I use a Rigid shop vac pulling through a dust deputy for all the small tools and a Harbor Freight "2hp" DC for the bigger tools. It's about the size of the Wen. I have 5 inch snap lock piping in the ceiling to get close to the tools where it goes to 4 inch flex. I have a gate at each tool, the DC does not have enough suction to pull from more than one at a time. I only use the blower from the HF DC. It is mounted to the wall with a super dust deputy cyclone below it. The cyclone is supported by a home made box about 18x18 with wheels. It has a clear plexiglass window so I can see if it is full. When it is, I unbolt the cyclone from the box (4 bolts) and I can wheel the sawdust out. The DC exhausts through the wall. There is nothing visible unless the dust bin overflows. My shop is not heated or cooled so exhausting the DC does not cause me to loose conditioned air.

 

[Charles Lent]

The trouble with using Shopvacs and long runs is that they loose ability from the losses incurred in the longer runs, and the Shopvac is quite limited already. The whole house vacuum that I have imploded a 5 gallon plastic under my dust deputy just seconds after starting the vacuum. It was supposed to be a temporary solution until I could find a better and sturdier container, but I didn't expect near instant failure. I ended up stacking 3 five gallon buckets together for the added wall thickness and this worked until my son found me a metal grease barrel, a small version of a 55 gallon metal barrel. At a capacity of about 25 gallons it was perfect for my need. These barrels arrive relatively clean, because the grease in them comes in a plastic bag. For small saw dust, not chips, this is an ideal collection method. My machines that make bigger chips collect in their bases and I shovel them out about every 6 months. The fine sawdust gets collected with my whole house vacuum and the exhaust from it exits my shop at the roof level, so the harmful dust that makes it through the Dust Deputy never gets into my lungs. I wish I had the space for a real shop dust collector, but I had to put the house vacuum and Dust Deputy in the attic of my shop because of space problems.

Charley

 

[mpeele]

Central Vacuum units operate at a much higher vacuum pressure than shop vacs. They generally develop around 125 inches of static pressure where shop vacs are somewhere around half that. Oneida's Supercell has two or three central vac motors style motors generating 125 inches of pressure each. My first dust collector was a 55 gal drum with two central vac motors installed in the lid and a 4" intake. The two motors were about 100 CFM 130 In/H2O pressure. It created a hell of a racket but really sucked. The same style motors are used in HVLP spray systems. The motors are not much more than the cost of a shop vac. The one thing to watch out for if you decide to build one is to make sure you get a motor a high bypass vacuum motor that has a fan and does not use the vac air for cooling.

 

[SabertoothBunny]

Central Vacuum units operate at a much higher vacuum pressure than shop vacs. They generally develop around 125 inches of static pressure where shop vacs are somewhere around half that. Oneida's Supercell has two or three central vac motors style motors generating 125 inches of pressure each. My first dust collector was a 55 gal drum with two central vac motors installed in the lid and a 4" intake. The two motors were about 100 CFM 130 In/H2O pressure. It created a hell of a racket but really sucked. The same style motors are used in HVLP spray systems. The motors are not much more than the cost of a shop vac. The one thing to watch out for if you decide to build one is to make sure you get a motor a high bypass vacuum motor that has a fan and does not use the vac air for cooling.

Sounds really interesting as far as function but I have no idea what you said.

 

[JimD]

An Oneida Supercell is a somewhat interesting DC alternative with high suction like a shop vac but dust flow almost equivalent to a DC. DCs are low suction high flow. Shop vacs are high suction but low flow. The Oneida Supercell is pretty high suction and pretty high airflow. One way it could make sense is if you need to connect tools with a long length of flexible hose. I do this with my shop vac when using my router table, jointer, and planner but it is just OK. I could use higher suction due to the restriction of the hose and my guess is the Supercell would be better. But it lacks a lot of dust storage and I suspect it will be really loud since it essentially has several shop vac motors running at once. But something to consider.

 

[Charles Lent]

I had wanted a vacuum system for my shop, as I was tired of living/dealing with loud Shopvacs. When I saw my neighbor carrying his house central vacuum unit that was being removed from his house major remodel, I asked if I could have it and he brought it to me, saying it didn't work, to which I replied "I'll fix it! The problem turned out to be a defective control circuit transformer, and I replaced it with a doorbell transformer of the same voltage from Lowes. It proved to work really well for my finer saw dust from sanding, drill presses, router table, portable sanders, etc. and it wasn't near as noisy as my shop vacuum.

Over the next few days my neighbor brought me the pipes from the walls, the inlets, and all of the hose and attachments for it. I didn't have room for it in my small shop, but used it there for several weeks before installing the pipes and wiring to install the unit up in my shop attic. When running with the pull-down stairway closed, it makes so little noise in the downstairs shop that I have left it running a few times. I ended up installing a red light in the shop ceiling, so I have a warning that it is running to keep me from leaving it on. I then added a Dust Deputy to the inlet piping, to separate out the significant dust. I had installed a 5 gallon pail under the Dust Deputy to collect the saw dust, but the vacuum collapsed the pail almost the instant that I started the vacuum. So I went searching for a solution, and ended up stacking three of the 5 gallon buckets together, This tripled the bucket wall thickness and the outside ribs on the buckets now went all the way to the bottom of the most inside bucket. The result was no more collapsing the top in-use bucket.

I use the vacuum this way until my son found me a 25 gallon grease barrel and brought it to me. The grease is contained inside a plastic bag inside these barrels, so the barrel was almost clean when it arrived. I use two layers of 3/4 Birch cabinet plywood to make a cover that fit snugly on this barrel. The upper layer is 1 1/2" larger than the lower layer to provide a good flat seal. The lower layer just fits the inside of the barrel. I added 1" wide closed cell foam Weather Stripping to the larger layer all the way around and against the lower layer to make a good seal to the barrel when placed on it. The two layers were glued together using caulking from a caulk gun, and a hole surrounded with smaller holes around it drilled through these two layers to mount the Dust Deputy. I used caulking between the top layer and the Dust Deputy too.

I have never come close to filling this steel drum in a year of use for my home shop. The large chips take up a lot of room, but fine saw dust doesn't. Every Spring I ready my shop for the next year, which includes emptying this barrel and it has never been more than about 3/4 full. A couple of years ago I realized that the fabric filter wasn't collecting anything at all and there was just a trace of micro fine saw dust on the inside walls of the collection portion of my central vacuum, so decided to completely remove it. Anything that gets past the Dust Deputy now just goes out the exhaust of the central vacuum at the second story of my shop into the air and never gets back into my shop. In my opinion, I though I don't collect the large chips from the jointer, planer, and table saw, this vacuum does collect and keep all of the small dangerous saw dust out of my shop and lungs. If I had the room for a big wood shop dust collector I doubt that it would do as good of job on this fine dust, but at considerably more space and noise.

I added inlet ports near my scroll saws, sanders, and over my most used sanding work bench and have hooks on the ceiling to hang the 25' vacuum hose so I can run it anywhere else needed. I added an inlet port to the outside of my shop next to the passage door and vacuum the cars and trucks with it too. It's been a better solution to my shop fine dust collection than I could have ever imagined before installing it. I managed to use most of the in wall piping that was given to me, but I did buy two lengths and a few fittings to complete the installation. I don't think I spent $100 to complete it.

Charley