Cyclone Separator update

[Steve D]

So far response on the cyclone separators has been much lower than I anticipated for a group this size. When negotiating the free shipping deal I had projected between 5 and 25 units. So far I have 2 firm committments (counting me) and a couple more maybe's. I would like to get input from others that may be "on the fence" so that I can adjust accordingly. Please respond if you fall into "yes I am seriously considering this except":

a) I want you to go first so I know this really works
b) All my money went to Erin's tools sale but I'll buy later
c) Hoping to get cash for Christmas so I can buy one

If nothing else, I'd like to see if Gary will consider leaving the offer open for purchases through the first of the year. Again, the cost is $169 for the separator only.

 

[mshel]

I have some interest but would like more 1st hand opinions from those who are using it. I have a Delta 1 1/5 hp canister style and would like to improve it's performance. However, I am reluctant to add yet another component which may or may not improve what I already have. DC has so many variables that it seems almost like wizardry. Anyway, still not convinced but open minded. Just my 2 abes.

MIke

 

[Steve D]

I hear you and feel the same way. That was the exact issue I raised, does it make any sense to put more money into my existing system or upgrade down the line. I'm convinced in my case it makes sense. I plan to make this upgrade and also convert to 6" DWV for the trunk line, 4" risers and very short pieces of flex to the machines. I'll test first after adding this so I can comment on improvement from this change alone.I have a 2 HP griz with plenty of suction but right now it sucks :lol:

 

[woodguy1975]

The issue is that you are not going to get better performance with this add on cyclone. You are just going to ease the chip disposal. The two things that matter for performance are suction and CFM and neither are going to be helped.

If you have your collector in a closet and have space for it I can see an improved convinience, but it just doesn't make sense to me (to use it like shown in the picture) for a shop where you are giving up that much shop space for an easier chip disposal.

I totally applaud your effort to help out the group. :eusa_clap I just don't see it being a good fit for most folks unless they are looking for a "build your own cyclone" out of a motor and impeller from another unit. Reguardless your impeller will still be the same size which means your suction and cfm are going to remain the same. I think that may be the reason the response has been a little low.

Thanks,

John

 

[Steve D]

John,

There are other factors that affect performance in addition to suction and CFM, drag and turbulence in the airflow will also impact performance. For example, flex pipe degrades performance over the same size smooth pipe. In my case I have the classic trash can separator with the plastic cyclone lid. It helps separate big chips from dust but does it inefficiently. When the can is half full, it passes everything on to the bag and I doubt that airflow is optimized.

In my case, this setup takes up no additional space and lets me separate using 6" pipe instead of 4". According to other users that have this unit, it passes very little dust, nearly everything is separated out. This is Phil's setup and he just vents it because he passes very little dust.

I'm not looking to sell anybody on the concept, just trying to pass along a deal.

 

[Phil]

woodguy
don't knock it if you haven't tried it. this thing is amazing. I actually exhaust into the woods and nothing comes out. i use a 4 " trunk with reductions along the line and have never had such good removal of everything from chips to fine dust.

 

[golfdad]

Im like most in I'm interested but I want to see them work first

 

[McRabbet]

Since this thread has generated more interest and and I join others to applaud Steve D's efforts to bring a good deal to all of us, I thought I'd add a little more on the subject. First, anyone really interested in understanding woodworking shop dust collection should spend a few hours on the following web site as it is THE definitive source for information on hobbyist dust collection design (e.g., 6" versus 4" duct size). There is a wealth of information that is essential for good, safe design.

http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

And, since many of us use PVC for our ducting since it is readily available, is well-suited to carry dust and it is loads cheaper than industrial metal spiral duct, a second site offers very good information on the myths associated with static electricity, grounding and dust explosion hazards using PVC.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rodec/woodworking/articles/DC_myths.html

If you are going to build a system, the next website from Terry Hatfield provides a good design for shop built blast gates:

http://home.alliancecable.net/~woodworker/blastgates.html

Ok, what about the separator? I built a variation on the trash can separator using the plan found in ShopNotes Vol 10 Issue 55. (See the picture in My Shop in my Gallery). As a 1-man shop, I only use 1 power tool at a time, so for now, an 800 cfm DC is adequate and in my experience, the ShopNotes separator removes 80%+ of the output from my planer or jointer and more than 70% from my tablesaw. It fills to 80% before any significant bypassing and allows me to empty chips to large trash bags in my shop about 4-6 times before I need to empty my dust collector bag which is in the crawl space under my shop floor. The main advantage I see in a cylcone unit is the lower static pressure drop when compared to the trash can style; Pentz rates the trash can type at about 4.5" of S.P. drop versus 2-2.5" for a good cyclone. The other big advantage for a cyclone is to reduce the volume of material that gets to the main dust collector and it's filter.

Bottom line? For about $30 in materials, I'm happy with my solution.

 

[Steve D]

Rob,

Thanks for the additional information. Could you please add those links to the links page? They will be helpful for others in the future.

 

[woodguy1975]

woodguy
don't knock it if you haven't tried it. this thing is amazing. I actually exhaust into the woods and nothing comes out. i use a 4 " trunk with reductions along the line and have never had such good removal of everything from chips to fine dust.

Right, yoiu are seeing an improved chip collection. That is the purpose and so you get the desired results. I fully expected you to see that. I just wanted to point out to someone thinking they are going have better CFM by simply adding this unit versus going straight to the bag that it wasn't the case. Chip collection and CFM are two different issues.

You guys are totally right about drag. Using standard elbows instead of long elbows, 4" instead of 6", all play a critical roll in overall performance of the system.

I have an Oneida 3 HP cyclone. It collects fine. All I get is dust into the filter unit as Phil would see with his separator, but it actually doesn't perform better than a bag unit of the same impeller size given the same piping network. It is just about convenience chip disposal.

Sorry, I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers. There are a lot of guys just started out and I just wanted to make sure they get all the info and have realistic expectations. McRabbet provided some fine links to gain folks understanding.

Thanks,

John

 

[Monty]

That Bill Pentz link is already in the links directory: see here. I described that site as (in)famous because discussions on cyclones always seems to start a "dust storm" of controversy on Woodnet! Still, pretty interesting to read.

 

[DavidF]

Just my 2 pen'th,but I started out by piping my whole shop and using blast gates at each machine, but because my system is a bit small (jet 650CFM) I recently changed to just having 2 branches directly at the DC ;1 going to BS and disk sander and the other to a 10 ft extending flex hose for TS, Planer and Jointer. I use the fazeloc connectors. Other advantage is that I can clamp it to the bench or router table or sweep the floor with it, all as needed. It works just great and for a one man, 1 machine at a time shop it is a lot less hassle than it might appear.

 

[woodguy1975]

There is probably one of those heated discussions at least every two weeks on Wnet. :-( One of the reason I just dont' go there any more that much. Too much argueing and fussing going on about the same old subjects.

See ya,

John

That Bill Pentz link is already in the links directory: see here. I described that site as (in)famous because discussions on cyclones always seems to start a "dust storm" of controversy on Woodnet! Still, pretty interesting to read.

 

[Phil]

consider this:
bags a. plug up b. let fine dust into the shop
separators don't if you exhaust outside

 

[woodguy1975]

That is true. It is also true as the bag fills up you do loose some CFM.

Thanks,

John

 

[Steve D]

Mine is on order and I will post pics and comments after I get it.

 

[DavidF]

Is that always true John? mine is the Jet with filter on the top that does all the filtering and a poly bag at the bottom so has no effect on CFM in my case, but true in 2 bag models where they rely on both bags to exhaust the air

 

[woodguy1975]

In your case it souldn't affect your CFM. You filter is your biggest factor. A dirty filter will kill your efficiency.

See ya,

John

 

[Monty]

consider this:
bags a. plug up b. let fine dust into the shop
separators don't if you exhaust outside

Yep. In many ways, venting to the outside is the ideal solution - I'd do that myself if I could. In fact, you see that in professional shops, and it's the setup that David Marks uses. This is a pic from his show on DIYnet.com:

But there are some drawbacks to consider. You have to really be in an area with good climate year-round. Venting to the outside creates a negative pressure in the shop, which draws outside air into the shop. During the winter, that outside air is COLD -- not good, if you ask me! And if your shop is connected to your house (as mine is) that would have a negative impact on your energy bill!

It also can pose a health risk if you have gas appliances in your shop (for example, I share my basement shop space with my gas water heater & HVAC). These appliances need to vent their carbon monoxide to the outside. Venting your dust collector outside (with resultant negative pressure in the shop) can force outside air to be drawn back into the shop through these vents, preventing the proper venting of carbon monoxide. In other words, this can lead to a potentially dangerous/life-threatening buildup of carbon monoxide in your shop!

Just thought I'd mention these factors, in case anyone is considering venting to the outside like in the pic above.