Crosscut back saw

[tvrgeek]

So, watching all the videos, many claim for small crosscuts their standard rip tenon saw is fine. Well, I was trying to do some mitered bridle joints in 3 inch table top edges, and I found even my good Crown saw to be a bit rough. I want a true crosscut.

LN, Cosman, Veritas... Big bucks
Vintage, have not located yet, but open to a deep one.

So I bought an S&J "tenon saw" off Amazon. Cheap, but said to be good steel. Folded brass back etc. Terrible handle. It does not say what the tooth pattern is, other than 15 TPI.

As expected it is RIP, but surprise, a WAVY set. I guess that is what makes it a combo and a little cleaner crosscut than a strait rip.
But I want a true crosscut.
Step one: Make a new saw vice as I bought a vintage iron Stanley and can't find it anywhere!
Step two: Over to the anvil and remove all the set. I think I got it good enough. Still dead strait.
Step three: Make a shim for my saw set to reduce the normal set. It went to "10" and I think that is too much for a joinery saw. #6 brass washer I honed flat on a course diamond stone flat and a tad thinner.
Step four: Re-file the teeth. I got started and pretty easy, but taking a break. Hard to see even through my lighted magnifier lamp.
Next will be to de-bur, do the set and test/tune. Lastly will be to fix the handle.

Of course this will take me all day and just buying a good saw is smarter if all I wanted was a saw, but I figure by the time I get this one dialed in, I will be a pro at fine tooth saws. I can do pretty well on my 5, 8 and 10.

PS:
Following WEB advice, I reduced the rake on the first two inches of my RIP and sure enough, it is far easier to start.

 

[Rwe2156]

If you're buying a saw IMO you can't beat the Veritas saws for the money.

I have followed Frank Klausz's instructions on turning a cheap saw in to a user and it does work, to a point.

I wish I could find that video, but in a nutshell his process is similar to what you did, except instead of removing all the set, he uses an endgrain block of wood and a hammer to remove some of the set. Make a test cut and see how much the plate wobbles.

He used a small screw driver to set the teeth.

I hate sharpening saws...................

 

[Graywolf]

Sounds as though you’re on an adventure or going down a rabbit hole. However, I would never take a saw to an anvil to remove the set. It’s to risky and you could break off some teeth also it’s extra work. I simply would re-file the saw and let the subsequent filing take care of the set. I often re- sharpen saws for folks and never have to set the teeth. The teeth simply had to much set to begin with. Its not that hard to change ripsaw to a cross cut saw and vice versa. As far as joinery saws are concerned my 12 inch cross cut and my 14 inch tenon are 12 and 13 points per inch respectively. That’s 11TPI and 12TPI. The crosscut saw I like a 15 to 20 degrees rake and 20 to 25 degrees fleam. On my tenon saw which is filed rip, I like 7 to 10 degrees rake and 0 degrees fleam. I have over time come to appreciate a courser tooth configuration. I get as clean if not a cleaner cut from them than a finer tooth configuration. The simple reason for this is larger teeth have larger gullets, which in turn carries more saw dust generates less heat which means a smoother cut. With that said, it’s also about the scale of your work. For example, I wouldn’t use a 3 PPI saw to rip a board that is 3/4” thick, but I would use it on a board in the 3 to 8 range. By that same example, I wouldn’t use a 15PPI saw to cut a tenon on a 3 to 6 inch bench leg either. So, when I think about someone just starting out, wanting to do joinery by hand with traditional tools. One has to think about, what are you building? If you are building boxes then you could use a dovetail saw and a 12 inch carcass saw. You will be crosscutting boards of 3/4 to 1/4 inch range. You can get along well with a saw set up 11 to 13 PPI. If you are building large pieces of furniture then you can add the tenon saw of about 14 inches. If you are wanting build heavier pieces like a work bench and want to cut your joinery by hand, then I would just use handsaws. My current work bench was built using a 28” ripsaw with 5PPI. A 24” crosscut with 7PPI. I used a 12” carcass saw and a dovetail saw for a couple small joints on the tool tray. The rest was 2 chisels, a bit brace with three auger bits, a jack plane and a joiner plane. The only 2 specialty tools used were a dowel pointer and a router plane. The rest was common layout and marking tools. I guess my point is to look at what will effectively and avoid diminishing returns. To give an example, while I was cutting some large cheeks on a few tenons I tried comparing a 3PPI to a 5PPI. Both of these saws cut clean an easy with almost no noticeable difference in the time needed to make the cut. By the same token, I have compared a 15PPI to a 12PPI cutting small tenon cheeks. Both of these saws cut smooth and well but this time with a noticeable difference in the time it took to cut the joint. Both of these a good examples of diminishing returns. Good luck, and share your results, maybe a few pics as well.

 

[tvrgeek]

I am reasonably experienced in metal work. Light auto body hammer, tap tap tap. Very light. Worked just fine.

Got the teeth re-cut. It has about .001 residual set, but inconsistent. Gave it a try anyway to see how I progressed. Cuts quite smooth and dead straight for at least 2 inches, as far as I tried. Sure does start easier than a rip. I may leave it at that. 30 degree fleam. Hardest part is my hand was cramping. Not happy with my file. Too 6-sided. Some Italian job. I may try one of Cosman's offerings. I figure it will take a go or two to perfect my effort as well as the saw. This was a pretty radical file job.

Just finished reshaping the handle. I have fairly large hands and needed to open it quite a bit for my pinky. Angle is a little low as my index finger points a little high. Feels good now. One coat of poly drying. I'll do a second and than a bit of 4-0 and call it a day.

As I said, I went down this path as I was trying to perfect a mitered bridle joint in a 3 inch style. I was not happy with the crosscut quality. I have a good small dovetail and tenon saw. I wanted a crosscut for the smoothness of the cut. I also have standard 10 and 8 point Diston crosscuts that were my grandfathers.

Side note, what was the name/contact for the gentleman you mentioned who sold tools above Underhill's school?

Poly drying on the handle. My custom fit vise.

 

[Graywolf]

Ed Lebetkin is his name. edlebetkin@gmail.com is how you can reach him. If you want to visit you will want to make an appointment. He has had to change how he allows folks in and his schedule of business. Just reach out to him he will get back to you.

 

[tvrgeek]

Much thanks.

BTW, I did not replace the rivets with saw nuts. I'll wait until either they get lose, or I find some cheap enough. It is a good working tool now.