Contractor vs. Cabinet vs. Hybrid Saw

bphaynes

Parker
Corporate Member
I'm looking to upgrade from my DeWalt jobsite table saw and I'm looking at going a cheaper route (contractor saw) or more expensive like a Saw Stop cabinet saw. I'm just a weekend hobbiest so I don't feel like I need a cabinet saw, but I want something that is good quality. I know there are newer table saws that blend features of the two types of saws (hybrids). Any advice on any of this?

Does anyone have experience with the new Oliver table saws especially their hybrid 10" Professional Table Saw - 10040
 

Oka

Casey
Corporate Member
Oliver makes a decent saw, so does Grizzly, and Harvey. A guy near me was selling one but it was a higher end model and way too much saw for me. Generally, Oliver and South bend were only marketing shop/pro stuff, but both companies started offering a prosumer line a few years ago.
One simple basic thing to consider, if you are going to put the saw in a fixed spot, then a cabinet level saw is really going to make you the happiest as far as performance consistency. They typically weigh 450-600 lbs depending on the make and added bell 'n whistles. Always a trade off. There isn't a day I regret selling my cabinet saw when I moved.
If you are going to spend money get the best saw you can afford, the table saw is the center of a shop

If you can live without a riving knife, then these older Unisaws would also be a great option.
 

rcarmac

Board of Directors, Secretary
Robert
Staff member
Corporate Member
I am in the same search. Looking more toward the hybrid like the Laguna
 

marinosr

Richard
Corporate Member
If you can live without a riving knife, then these older Unisaws would also be a great option.

And of course ninety five percent of folks can live without a splitter or riving knife, it's just a question of whether the chance you end up in the five percent is worth x dollars to you. I took a board at high speed to the chest in my college's wood shop, escaping only with some bruised ribs because I was wearing bib overalls. So my shop is entirely old iron, except for my table saw, which is new and has a riving knife. I was definitely sorely tempted by the cheap old unisaws that passed by in craigslist though.
 

Oka

Casey
Corporate Member
TBH, my present saw does not have either, nor any of my previous saws. So I made a splitter for this one. Reality is it just depends on how well you know the saw and staying focused on the task at hand. Safety comes down to awareness, focus planning your task and following your plan.
 

golfdad

Co-director of Outreach
Dirk
Corporate Member
mine did not either and I got lax and paid the price with 8 days in the hospital. Theres co out there that make upgrades to make your saw safer. I think for most hobbyist a hybrid tables saw is just the ticket. Be safe out there folks
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
A 1 1/2 HP, using a rip and a crosscut thin blades, did everything I asked, so is it big enough for a hobbyist? Clearly. A hybrid puts it on a box so in theory dust collection may be better. ( I just put my contractor saw on a box) Some hybrids have a little better accessories and fence over a contractor series. Do look at the parts diagrams and you can see the differences between the various saws. F2 trunnion seems to be a light weight aluminum where a cabinet saw will be heavy cast iron. In theory, the bigger and heavier, the smoother. I am not sure the technical definition of the trunnion bolted to the top vs cabinet has any real merit. They are bolted together anyway. More the mass of the trunnion and motor HP.

Laguna, Baleigh, Oliver, Grix, ShopFox, Delta, Jet, and Powermatic, all make a Hybrid. For the same price, Harvey makes a 2 HP iron cabinet saw with some very nice features. SawStop only contractor or cabinet but you can get the smaller motor in the cabinet to bring the price way down. Maybe a good option if you only have 110.

Of course, a 3 HP saw needs a 20A 220 power drop. A 2 HP you can get away with a 20A 110. If you don't have 220, I sure would look at the Harvey 110LC along with the F2 and SawStop small motor PCS. The Baleigh and Oliver raise on posts rather than a pivot, kind of like a light weight version of a dovetail trunnion. The Powermatic 1000 may be an iron trunnion. Can't tell.

A riving knife, not a splitter, I consider an absolute must. That was half the reason I went to a cabinet. That and well, I just wanted the bigger heavier saw. Would a hybrid have worked? Probably. I had two scares WHILE MY RIDGID SPLITTER WAS IN PLACE. Small stock, one went under the splitter, one in the big gap between blade and splitter. I even use the blade guard on my C-300. I never had a scare with my MJ splitter, but still, I feel better with the riving knife. Yes people live without either. People love their old iron, epically if a Unisaw or PM66. People also jump out of perfectly good airplanes. Most of them do fine. I know of two who did not. The lucky one is in a wheelchair.

If you can afford it, I would buy the SawStop PCS 3 HP. Maybe overkill, but a very nice saw and maybe if you got careless, a minor injury rather than a serious one. Personally, I prefer to use sleds and jigs so I don't ever get within 6 inches of the blade. I am very happy with my cabinet saw and hope I don't regret not buying the PCS. It was a difficult choice. They all take up the same space, contractor to cabinet.

You can find a saw at every price point from $700 to $5000 with a justification for every step. ( Or $50,000 for industrial slider) Your choice. I wanted a Powermatic since I was in school, but could not justify the price considering their reputation is not what it was. Is the 2000 a match for the 66? Is it really any better than my C-300? Maybe if I could have seen them in a store I would have been convinced. The only saws I saw in a store were the PCS and an F3. Fit and finish on SS seems first rate. So was the F3. I had to tweak a few things on my C-300.

When it came down to it, I believe I bought a lifetime saw. I am too old to do it again. Your choice. Lots of very good options only you can decide. FWIW, never met an unhappy SawStop PCS owner even with the price and even with dismissing the brake feature.

It is spring sale time, I think Jet goes on sale soon. Harvey is already on sale. SawStop may toss in an accessory, but don't ever expect any Festool to actually go on sale. Cost no object and 220V available, a loaded SawStop was my first choice. All things considered, I went C-300. In truth, any of the hybrids or any of the modern riving knife contractors ( after enclosing) would have served me well.

"Clear as mud, but it covered the ground.
Made my head go round and round"
 

Oka

Casey
Corporate Member
Harvey makes an excellent saw. I believe they were the factory maker for the Laguna saw, they look quote similar. Read the posts TVRGeek has on his recent purchase. Bear in mind, TVR is really critical of every little imperfection. He takes a machinists approach to the machine, alot like you would when you get a new metal lathe, you check everything to tune it up before depending on the saw's readouts and performance. Even though some of the analysis seems to sound negative, TVR is comparing to perfection or what should be absolute. So it is a great information.
 

JimD

Jim
Senior User
SawStop does not offer an inexpensive saw by my thinking but they do offer a jobsite and contractor saw that are both less expensive than my PCS. You can certainly get cheaper saws but they won't have the brake. It limited my injury last year after several decades without an incident. I have not used the jobsite or contractor saw but the reviews I've seen indicate they are capable saws, similar to top saws by other manufacturers in their category.

Things to check on jobsite or contractor saws, more so, but really on all saws is whether the blade is parallel to the miter gauge slots, does the blade stay perpendicular to the top as you raise and lower the blade, and does the blade angle to the miter gauge slots change as the blade goes up and down. It is obviously important that the blade angle does not move as you raise and lower it. On some saws it reportedly does. That is one thing that tends to be better on cabinet saws. I had to true up my PCS initially but it has stayed set over several years. A rip fence that moves smoothly and whose face is perpendicular to the table top is also pretty nice to have. The left and right faces of my PCS rip fence are not parallel to each other. So I have the left face I normally use perpendicular to the top and the right is a little off but because I don't use it it isn't an issue. I could shim it if I needed to. So even expensive saws (by my standards) can have some issues.

It also matters what you want to do. I made furniture for decades with lesser saws but it is easier to make accurate cuts on my PCS. If you just want to do home improvements and cruder builds, you don't need as much precision in the saw. A lot of people might be happier with a track saw too. For cutting up sheet goods, I use mine instead of the PCS.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
I guess bottom line would be if you can afford a PCS, do it.
Fit and finish is excellent. It is a very good saw. The risk of a cut goes from terrible to a minor cut.
Many have suggested to get their upgraded fence.

I use a circ saw to get my sheet goods to size, so I bought the smaller table saw. Some day I should go from a guide to a track saw.
 

wooduser

New User
Lecil
There is a LOT of very good info in this thread but I have to mention one other point I don’t think I saw (pun intended) and that is dust collection. You never know until you start using it but some models must do a better job than others. I was watching a you tube video on table saws and it was mentioned how much saw dust was caught in a Grizzly table taw. There were areas that the dust just stopped due to poor design. Also look out for holes in the cabinet area that should be covered with tap to reduce air infiltration. The door on hybrid saws is a big source of an air leaks,
Thinking about it now will save a lot of clean up later.

Lecil
 

bphaynes

Parker
Corporate Member
Thanks guys. TVR, I guess I could "afford" a PCS especially since I plan on a table saw like that lasting decades. But I also need a miter saw and a band saw at some point and if I got a TS for half of a PCS I could could those. I've been looking into the Harvey now that so much on here have suggested it. I'm a little concerned with some of the comments about customer service, lack of response, etc. from the company, but it seems like the best deal out there.
 

jlwest

Jeff
Corporate Member
I have been using Delta Unisaw's for 50 years and am very happy with them. Never had a problem.
 

JimD

Jim
Senior User
SawStop says there has not been a serious injury with their saws. I think this statement is, at best, misleading. I like having my SawStop and I think it helped me avoid the loss of the last part of my left middle finger but I still broke the bone and needed six stitches to close the cut. I still do not have normal feeling in it so there is nerve damage. I think my injuries were fairly serious. But they were much less than they would have been if the cartridge had not stopped the rotation of a 3/4 inch wide dado stack.

What determines the degree of injury is largely how fast your body part moves into the blade. We've all seen the hotdog test where the hotdog is fed into the blade at normal wood feed rate and just gets scratched. But my incident was kickback where my hand was thrown at the blade much faster. So I got a more serious injury. The brake may not stop a dado stack as fast, I don't know. But it worked. I think the stack turned less than one revolution after I contacted it (based an the damage to the dado stack).

The technology works but it does not eliminate serious injuries IMHO. But it always makes them much less serious than they would have been. I still have a finger even if it is a little deformed and lacks normal feeling on one side at the end. I am confident it would be shorter if I had used any of my previous table saws.
 

jlwest

Jeff
Corporate Member
I believe Sawstop gives a false sense of security which compromises basic safety and mythology. However in the worst case it does work.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Thanks guys. TVR, I guess I could "afford" a PCS especially since I plan on a table saw like that lasting decades. But I also need a miter saw and a band saw at some point and if I got a TS for half of a PCS I could could those. I've been looking into the Harvey now that so much on here have suggested it. I'm a little concerned with some of the comments about customer service, lack of response, etc. from the company, but it seems like the best deal out there.

I have found Harvey service excellent. Only had minor problems, but prompt and no issues.
I do like my C-14, which was the final decision to go for the C-300. Really tough competition in 3 HP 14 inch saws with the Laguna and Rikon. They were more expensive, but it was the little details that made my choice.

And again, for all the "never had a problem" People jump out of perfectly good airplanes without a problem. I know two who did. One is in a wheelchair the other in the ground. Half the people who play Russian Roulette survive. I expect the Harvey tools to be lifetime ( at least for me) and I fully expect the SawStop is. Any cabinet grade saw should be. One difference between low line ( Griz) middle ( Harvey) and prestige level is not the actual performance, but the feeling you have using it. SawStop fence rides on a little wheel, Mine on a nylon button. No assist gas spring to raise the blade. Triple V belts are not as smooth as a wide multi-groove bonded belt. So specs aside, the higher line tools may have intangibles you actually do want. It matters for a lifetime tool.

Jim's is the first story about a dado serious accident. Dado's are dangerous, no question. Be glad we are not in the EU as they were totally outlawed. Getting pulled in is the detail many forget when they think their hands are safe. The two close calls I had I was using long-ish push sticks and not applying much force, so when the little pieces went, I did not get pulled or fall into the blade. Now with a riving knife, I can not only remain careful, but it reduces the change of an accident.
 

Wiley's Woodworks

Wiley
Corporate Member
I'm going to make some points I consider absolutes:
  • There are only two reasons to get less than a high HP cabinet saw: your budget (which you imply is an issue), and your table saw must be movable around your shop. In general a cabinet base TS can be put on wheels, but I don't recommend it.
  • I haven't seen 'em all, but I have never seen a contractor portable TS as accurate as a quality cabinet TS. This is the biggest trade-off you have to decide on. So, what will you be making for the next 10 years, quality fine furniture or bird houses and cutting boards.
  • A cabinet saw can accommodate more accessories as your budget allows.
  • You will quickly feel the need to build a cabinet/table top around a contractor saw and a hybrid. The additional resting space for large pieces of wood is invaluable. Maybe you would enjoy the project; maybe you would rather spend the time and $ making something you want to make.
  • In general smaller saws don't cooperate as well with crosscut sleds.
  • Factor in possibility of needing 220v for a cabinet saw. If you get that large a cabinet saw, you will be glad you spent the extra $ the first time you have to cut 3" thick white oak.
 

Bill J

Bill
User
I faced this same decision last year. In my case it was if I bought a contractor saw then I could get a band saw as well. I made the decision to get the 220V Sawstop cabinet saw and have never regretted it. My shop is fairly small so I also got the Sawstop integrated mobile base. Although the CS is quite heavy, I can move it fairly easily. I try to limit this to only really necessary moves and have marked the location on my floor to reduce the need to relevel.
I am still planning the acquisition of a bigger, better band saw than the tabletop I have now but the wait has been worth it.
 

JimD

Jim
Senior User
Choosing between more but less capable tools versus fewer but better tools is a choice most of us face. I have the PCS now but I bought it after my kids were grown, their marriage ceremonies paid for, their college educations paid for, etc.. I previously used cheaper table saws and other tools. The table saw I had before the PCS was a Ryobi BT3100 that cost $300. I made a lot of furniture with the Ryobi and its predecessors. More than I have made with the PCS. It isn't worse furniture, I've made the same bedroom set, for instance, both with and without the PCS and my other newer tools (twice before the PCS, once after). It's easier with nicer tools but it doesn't have to affect accuracy. For hundreds of years furniture was made with hand tools.

My predecessor table saws did not last like I think the PCS will. The BT3100 lost the ability to raise and lower the blade. I could have fixed it but elected to buy the saw I wanted. I think buying tools that may make things a little more difficult but work because that is what you can afford is perfectly viable.

A choice I wish I made earlier is to use a track saw to make cuts on big pieces of wood, sheet goods or solid. There are inexpensive models available now, $200-300 will get you one with track. Especially when you don't have a big cabinet saw with 52 inch rip capacity, a track saw is a really nice thing to have. I also use mine to cut glue ready edges on long boards, including my 10 foot dining room table. Track saws are difficult to use to cut small pieces, however, but that is what table saws do very well. Even a jobsite saw with a track saw would let you make nearly anything. Not as easily as with bigger more expensive tools but it can be done. My bt3100 was about the size of a jobsite saw and I made multiple bedroom sets and a lot of other furniture with it.
 

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