Changed my tune

[tvrgeek]

We all know, a hack blames their tools and a craftsman can make even a bad tool work. Mostly. I am a fair hack. Always bought tools "good enough" Never considered high end or boutique tools as really being better performing, even if nicer to hold, prettier etc.

Well, I have changed my tune. While I am working to improve my skills from homeowner carpentry hack to true woodworking craftsman ( yes, I expect it to take the rest of my life) I have found many of my tools were NOT trustworthy. Squares not square. Saws that did not cut strait, chisels that dulled or rolled too quick, sharpening tools and jigs that messed up the geometry. Router bits, drill bits, bandsaw blades, and even sandpaper. I know this as I compare one to one at the same time. If I get the same results several tines, ( even if poor) I know it is me. If the result is variable, it may be the tool.

Now, some good enough are, well good enough. A well tuned Bailey plane cuts just as well as a Bedrock, just harder to adjust. An old exhaust valve is a perfectly good burnisher, but a nice one with a proper handle is easier to use.

Simple: When I screw up, I know it is me and I need to practice that skill, not the tool. I can build the skill easier if I trust the tool. It is also cheaper to buy a tool once. I have also learned a lot of the tools I bought over the years were not the right tool. Too many years I have used a #4 smoother when I should have been using a #5.

Of course, the level of trust varies with the tool. It is not always price. I actually have some HF tools that are trustworthy. I love my plastic handle 3/8 ratchet over my Snap-on. I grew up believing Craftsman wrenches were trustworthy, until I almost broke my hand when a ratchet popped lose. ( happened on two wrenches) I bought some expensive Snap-On flat screw-drivers. Nice, but the did not fit standard screw heads! ( I use 1/4 bits in magnetic handles now) . I hated square drive screws until I bought a higher quality bit and different brand of screws. ( Hint, Kreg are crap) I still like Torx better.

And lastly, tuning a good enough tool may make it the same as a top end tool. Recently learned to sharpen my hand saws. My "modern" Diston rip works fine now; when new it was miserable. The smoothest cut I have made on my band saw is with a cheap Sawblades.com band, but only after I honed the set. My Sears block plane can shave .0015, but there is about 3 full turns of the knob to take out the play. Yea, I want a LN. Not that it cuts better, but it adjusts better.

 

[CaptnA]

Looking back somehow I started becoming a tool collector and shifted away from a fledgling woodworker. I've seen what tool owners can do with the best most modern overpriced tools - and what a true craftsman can do with tools the first group would scoff at. The tool helps greatly, but the skill of the woodworker is what brings the wood to form and life. I quit 'blaming my tools' a long time ago for the shortcomings of my work. Since then there has been an upturn in the quality of my work. It has been a slow process with a large learning curve while I learned how to transform my tools from sale ready appearance to shop ready tools. I still have a long way to go. Wish someone had passed this mindset to me some 50+ years ago when I was "helping" my dad. Funny, somehow it all does seem vaguely familiar when I think about him....

 

[Henry W]

Let us know your findings Scott - how cheap can I get and still be able to produce decent results?

You did not mention frequency of use - one area where I can justify better tools. For example - chisels. I don't use them very often, but I have a decent set gifted to me a long time ago - I sharpened them reasonably well (a surprise in itself!) and now when I pull one out I know it will take a clean shaving where I need it to, and I can use it confidently. So while this is not a frequently used set, one could argue it need not be an expensive set; I maintain that while I maybe haven't used it 'enough' to justify the initial costs (well free to me!), where I have needed a good chisel this set has been invaluable (and it reminds me of the gift giver every time I open the box). There is almost no substitute for a chisel in say clearing out the bottom or corner of a machine cut mortise.

EDIT - and now having read Andy's post (we were writing simultaneously) - I should mention that I now also have a set of chisels. My Dad considered this set his best; he actually had 2 sets of chisels up on his tool wall (right beside each other in a continuous line). I was chastised once for using the 'good' chisel when I only had permission to use the 'other' ones. I ended up with his good set, End EDIT

On the other end of the use spectrum is frequently used tools - I use many tools enough to familiar with their (my?) quirks, and so there I can get by with 'good enough' - but for frequently used tools the satisfaction level (of using a fine tool and getting expected result consistently) is increased by the number of times I use it.

So there folks is justification having fine tools on both ends of the use spectrum; I don't actually have many fine tools, just 2 Festools, 1 Veritas shoulder plane, and no LN or Bridge City tools . My borrowed HF power hand planer has done the job needed, in combination with other tools.

 

[ShortRound84]

When I'm learning a new skill, I've found that high quality tools help me focus on the skill, rather than fighting my tools. Speaking from experience, a basket case #5 plane off eBay can certainly be made to perform, but if the blade temper was ruined, the sole isn't flat, the frog slips because of poor machining, etc. it can be pretty frustrating to learn on. One of life's strange inversions I suppose - novices can best learn a new skill on high quality (most often expensive) equipment but most often learn on cheap stuff, which makes learning that skill harder (myself included).

There's a time component as well - I want to spend my limited free time working on a piece of furniture, not finicky setup or trouble shooting poorly made tools. Sure I have cheap tools that are used occasionally (that $5 HF grinder just wont die), but I really try to buy quality tools for important tasks.

 

[Echd]

The problem is sometimes you don't know what you're missing- or what you wasted the money on- until after the fact.

Take chisels. Even the best chisels have to be sharpened. A $5000 set of Damascus steel japanese chisels still gets dull. After that point, the edge you put on them dictates how well they work, and while there will be small differences such as the geometry of the chisel making it harder or easier to navigate in tight places, or a nicer steel holding an edge better and longer, ultimately it won't cut better than even a cheap chisel with a good edge. Nothing wrong with buying an expensive tool because you like it, though. Confidence and enjoyment in a tool can make it worth every extra cent. Similarly with a plane, provided the adjustments arent truly defective. I saw some youtubers talking up the harbor freight $10 plane. I bought one, flattened the sole, put a super nice edge on the blade, and it makes phenomenal shavings.

Unfortunately the method of adjustment is poor and I think mine is cut wrong as it will pop off and essentially renders the plane unusable, but there is a lot of function to be found between $10 harbor freight planes and an $8000 Holtey. And I honestly doubt that a Holtey enables a craftsman to do anything a cared for Stanley can't do.

I'm sure everyone here could make a list of tools that blew them out of the water and ones that absolutely weren't worth the money. Maybe its just bias in selection, but I've been impressed with inexpensive tools fairly often- after all, woodworkers are all standing on the shoulders of giants in most things we do, and the greats of yesteryear didn't really worry about having a woodpeckers brand square that was true to 0.0000001 picometers.

 

[ShortRound84]

That's a good point Echd. It's why I try to buy everything used. That way if it sucks or wasn't worth it, I can sell the tool for what I bought it for.

Time is often the delta for me - can I make a $10 HF plane sing like a LN plane... yes probably. Do I want to spend the hours doing it? No.

But I have more money than time these days. I had the opposite problem when I was a teenager and maybe will again when I retire.

You also don't have to go all the way to an $8,000 tool to get most of the benefit. Lie Nielsen/Veritas tools strike a nice balance of cost v. quality for me. Their chisels have good steel, very close to flat out of the box, ~$75 each. And their resale value is solid so if I'd like something different they're easy to flip.

In my view, you will never get the money (mostly in the form of time) back out of a finely tuned HF plane.

For me, most importantly, quality tools give consistent results. If I screw something up, there's no doubt it was me. I can think about what I did wrong and improve on it next time.

 

[Mike Davis]

If you take a class for $100 and learn the efficient way to restore and tune a tool plus what to buy and what to stay away from then search out and buy good used old tools that can still be found for $20 - $100 each. Then fill out and fettle your tool set. You should be at around $1000 or less total for a good set of hand tools that will last your lifetime.

A set of high quality new tools will be closer to $4000-$6000 and you will still have to learn to keep them sharp.

I have met more than one woodworker who had a Lie-Nielsen hand plane that had only been used a couple times. They came to my sharpening workshops and knew very little about using or taking care of their tools. The were afraid to sharpen or even take it apart out of fear of damaging a tool that they probably shouldn't have bought to begin with.

It shouldn't take an hour to sharpen a chisel. I spent less time on a 100 year old 3 1/2 inch wide framing slick.

The only hand planes as a group that I have never been able to set up and use in 15 - 20 minutes are the Kuntz brand.
They can take over an hour brand new out of the box.

Unless there are missing parts or badly damaged or pitted crusted rusty parts i can tune up any old Stanley in a reasonable time. And anybody should be able to do the same with a little training.

 

[tvrgeek]

One caveat. Technology. Things like the metallurgy and cryo treating was not available on "old tools"
That is what makes the Richter chisels hold up.

"Sharpening" a chisel: easy and quick. Getting it ready to sharpen can take hours. Just got a "extra course" DMT plate that helps quite a bit. Old chisels with deep scratches, rounded edges and pits. Even my Marples mortice chisels, which had not been abused, took a bit of time to go from factory grind to about 1200 on the back, about where I stop on a mortice chisel.

My "new" first gen #5 bedrock I intend to use on a shooting board, so sole and cheek needed to be square. That tool several hours. I suspect it had been dropped and one cheek was ever so slightly bent. Enough to rock on the board.

Again, if I can trust the tool, I can concentrate on the skill.

 

[JimD]

To me the difficult question to answer is which tools not to cheap out on. I maintain, for example, that is is totally unnecessary to have a "nice" brand angle grinder. I have two milwaukee cordless and I like them but for corded ones I use one I got at Northern Hydraulic for about $25 at least 20 years ago and a newer cheaper HF. I do not think there is anything I could do with a "better" one I can do with the old Northern. Nor are the Milwaukee's I have nicer to use than the cheap one other than no cord. Maybe there is one I haven't tried I would really love but I think cheap is fine for angle grinders.

The only "nicer" hand plane I have is a Stanley shoulder plane, 1 inch wide. The steel in the blade is noticably better than that in my two other hand planes. I forget what brand my block plane is but it is the only one that gets used much. The adjustments are not terribly easy or difficult to use and it works. I'd need to use a hand plane more to justify spending more to me.

On the other hand, I tried several ways of cutting mortises and finally bought my one Festool, a Domino XL. It works much better and faster than my old Jet benchtop hollow chisel mortiser. I still think it is overpriced and I refuse to buy Festool bits or tenons but it's a nice tool. For a small shop like mine the space savings are also a nice plus.

I also really like my Bosch DVS1250 sander. It is the practical equivalent of the Festool Rotex at a much lower price. I don't like sanding so a big part of why I like this tool is the fact that it does it much faster is a big part of the appeal.

I also had several table saws before getting my Sawstop PCS. I got it for the safety technology but it is in most ways a really nice saw. Easier to get good results on than any of my prior saws.

I also use an oscillating tool fairly often. Much more for home maintenance than woodworking, however. I have a HF but it is a pretty crude and low powered tool. I have a Ryobi cordless that is similar in crudeness. I bought a Fein corded model and it is hugely better than either. Then I got a Milwaukee 12V model and it is now my favorite. It cuts as quick as the Fein corded model and just about as accurately/easily. For about 1/3 the price. I also use a DeWalt cordless some and it is about as good as the Milwaukee, just different in the controls. But I think an oscillating tool is definitely a tool it pays to avoid the cheap ones. Wasted money on the first couple. But I wouldn't buy the Fein again either, bigger waste of money there (although the Festool plunge base only works on the Fein so it still can do some things the others can't). For me mid level is the right balance on that tool.

 

[tvrgeek]

Agree, one does need to evaluate tool by tool.

Had a Craftsman oscillating tool. Burned it up. By reviews, bought a Dremel. Hate it. I keep thinking about the new brushless 12V Milwaukee as I have several of that series. The Fien does seem to be the best though. Very much like my Bosch sanders, hare my DeWalt. 40 year old Makita 1/2 drill still can't be beat.

Almost bought a sawstop. Mostly as a very good saw. But went Harvey as less to go wrong. I use sleds and jigs as well as doing much more work on the band saw. Safer still.

Had a Makita 4 inch grinder. It took years, but I used it up. Got a new 4 1/2 in a kit with a big hammer drill. HATE it. You have to take your glove off to use the switch and even that, have to look at it and fiddle. Having several HF grinders, each with a different blade, is cheaper, handier and probably more reliable. I was tempted by the Makita 18V grinder. Paddle switch, but the new ones have a proprietary disk! Maybe find an old one but hard to justify. Kind of big and clumsy. I likes my old 4 inch as it was more nimble.

Very happy with my Harvey TS and BS. Happy with my ClearVIew, though it is overkill and the Oneida would have been a better fit. Old Sears/Emerson jointer works fine. DeWalt 735, is OK, but I have discussed my views on that. I still may buy the Powermatic 15 inch. Old Delta DP is junk. Probably will buy a Nova. Not disappointed in any of my Milwaulkee 12V or Makita 18V tools. Ridgid work, but the won't honor their warrantee. PC are now more like Roybi.

Really happy with WoodRIver #4 plane. Not quite as much with a Taylor reabate plane. Love the LN mini block. Veritas sharpening jig way better than eclipse, Richter chisels clearly stay sharp longer and resist damage better, Best luck with Milwaukee Philips bits even though Makita gold tested better. Bosch jig saw blades, but their BS blades are junk. Amana and CMT for TS blades. Not a big router user, so are Whitside really better? Have not tired them yet, only have cheap Amazon junk. Half my squares were not square, or as square as I wanted. I trust my old Post triangles. On and on. I am sure everyone has their own list. My Triton and Ridgid routers both seem to work. Just got the Makita 18V compact. I think I am going to love it! Easy to grab for light duty ( 1/4 inch) . Only complaint about my Makita driver is it is TOO powerful. I should have bought the one-down. Keeping a Ridgid as it is half the torque. The Makita can snap a #8 construction screw faster than you notice.

So, today I am seeing if I can tune up my Grizzly Lyon-clone trimmer. Blades were not very flat even though the edge grind was pretty fine. It has been fine for trimming down to .01 or so, but can't quite match a shooting board for that last hair.

I have a 10 inch Ridgid miter saw. Cuts curves. Tune, added clamps, jigs etc. Still, not what I want. I guess I will have to break down and buy a Kipex. My old first generation Delta cut better. Should never have "upgraded"

 

[Oka]

What Mike iterated is true. You can set an average tool to perform sufficiently enough to perform with great results,.

The musical instruments I made in my teens and 20's, I had very few real high end tools. What I learned was to be keenly observant to what the tool could do and compensate for the error factor I knew that particular tool had. The results would be excellent, the the cost was extra time and detail rework where I knew the tool would under perform. The advantage of better higher quality tools is consistent predictability... ergo less rework time. That said, the I am thankful for the learning I gained from using lesser tools

BTW, when a chop saw, chain saw or any other power saw cuts curves, that generally means the blade has one side of teeth dulled from something. If the spindle bearing has some play, then, use a smaller blade to compensate for the spindle play.

 

[tvrgeek]

What Mike iterated is true. You can set an average tool to perform sufficiently enough to perform with great results,.

The musical instruments I made in my teens and 20's, I had very few real high end tools. What I learned was to be keenly observant to what the tool could do and compensate for the error factor I knew that particular tool had. The results would be excellent, the the cost was extra time and detail rework where I knew the tool would under perform. The advantage of better higher quality tools is consistent predictability... ergo less rework time. That said, the I am thankful for the learning I gained from using lesser tools

BTW, when a chop saw, chain saw or any other power saw cuts curves, that generally means the blade has one side of teeth dulled from something. If the spindle bearing has some play, then, use a smaller blade to compensate for the spindle play.

Not always. Multiple blades, most new. The problem is the basic design is not rigid enough. Problem from new and many have had the issue. My old original Delta did not. It's the saw. The curve is very slight, but it matters when fitting outside crown moldings. Hacking framing, it is fine.

Sure, you can eventually build skill to compensate for inconsistent tools, but the learning curve is longer. As I said right off, sufficient skill can overcome so-so tools, but much easier to build the skill if you trust the tool. Compensating for a not-square square is a royal pain. Having to fine tune a plane with an adjustment screw that does nothing for three turns then moves the blade 1/64 in the next degree is a pain. A plane on a shooting board that is not 90 degrees is a pain. Screw drivers that don't fit and so on. Heck, even buying a quality scraper made getting the edge ready much easier. The cheap ones were inconsistent in their folding the edge.

 

[Pointfiveone.5]

Gents -
things get improved beyond restoration.
skill evolves. squaring your square is nonsense
take a look at Matt Estlea tuning up an amazon hand plane.... probable arrived in the same shape that a 20$ hand plane from an estate sale where it was discovered keeping an empty box from blowing away.

sage old words -
get what you pay for
if you spend your time turning into a metal worker or restorer its exactly that spending.

 

[tvrgeek]

I am a metal worker. My other hobby is restoring little British cars.

A square that is not square is a real pain when laying out or even checking your paring of a dovetail. A miter saw that cuts curves is not even good enough for finish carpentry. A screw driver that cams out and skitters across your work is very expensive. So, buying trustworthy tools to start with is quicker, easier, and cheaper in the long run. That is all I was saying in the first place. A trustworthy tool need not be a boutique brand. You don't always get what you pay for, but if you don't pay for it, you sure as heck won't get it.

 

[Bming1]

I am a metal worker. My other hobby is restoring little British cars.

A square that is not square is a real pain when laying out or even checking your paring of a dovetail. A miter saw that cuts curves is not even good enough for finish carpentry. A screw driver that cams out and skitters across your work is very expensive. So, buying trustworthy tools to start with is quicker, easier, and cheaper in the long run. That is all I was saying in the first place. A trustworthy tool need not be a boutique brand. You don't always get what you pay for, but if you don't pay for it, you sure as heck won't get it.

What sorts of little British cars? (TVRs among them, I’m sure, given your name). I’m a Mini enthusiast, though I don’t currently own one.

 

[tvrgeek]

I have had: Saab Sonnet (actually built by Jensen) , TVR 2500M, MGA, MGB, MBG GT, Spit, Morgan +4, Stag.
Selling the B tomorrow and still working on my current project, the Stag. Also had a modern Mini. Almost bought an early Mini, but it just was not comfortable for me to sit in.

One project on the Stag is doing a new vacuum bag cold mold dashboard. First one came out so-so. I need to modify the buck and will using different veneer.

 

[Mike Davis]

Gents -
things get improved beyond restoration.
skill evolves. squaring your square is nonsense
take a look at Matt Estlea tuning up an amazon hand plane.... probable arrived in the same shape that a 20$ hand plane from an estate sale where it was discovered keeping an empty box from blowing away.

sage old words -
get what you pay for
if you spend your time turning into a metal worker or restorer its exactly that spending.

Even the finest tool needs to be kept in good condition or it becomes worthless or at least worth less. Squares do need to be squared, blades need to be sharpened, tools need to be cleaned and put away, benches need to be cleared, floors need to be swept, even the mind should be cleared and set toward the next task.

 

[teesquare]

Looking back somehow I started becoming a tool collector and shifted away from a fledgling woodworker. I've seen what tool owners can do with the best most modern overpriced tools - and what a true craftsman can do with tools the first group would scoff at. The tool helps greatly, but the skill of the woodworker is what brings the wood to form and life. I quit 'blaming my tools' a long time ago for the shortcomings of my work. Since then there has been an upturn in the quality of my work. It has been a slow process with a large learning curve while I learned how to transform my tools from sale ready appearance to shop ready tools. I still have a long way to go. Wish someone had passed this mindset to me some 50+ years ago when I was "helping" my dad. Funny, somehow it all does seem vaguely familiar when I think about him....

I am going to say that the truth is somewhere in between the two extremes of cheapskate, junky or worn out tools - and the best of the best. There are tools that are well built and good value - capable of producing fine work....*IF* the operator has the developed skills to recognize the limitations of the tool AND...himself.

 

[tvrgeek]

I over restore my planes and saws. They don't cut any better but make me feel better using them. You can make a cheap plane cut, but it is no fun to use. Even tuned up, it will never be as pleasurable as a decent tool. Besides, I can over-restore a crusty old Stanley long before I ever get that cheap iron back flat.

Truths according to me:
You don't always get what you pay for, but if you don't pay for it, you won't get it.
A real master craftsman can make a bad tool do great things, but it is darn hard for us with lesser skill to learn if we can't trust the tool. You don't know where the limitation lies.
Cheap or worn tool is more expensive as you will eventually replace it. I'm on my third band saw. First two total waste of money and I never used them for much. Finally bought the "real" one and it is a lifetime tool. I use far more than my table saw. Craftsman ratchet almost broke my hand making a Snap-On look cheap. Actually I like my $9 HF plastic ratchet more than my Snap-On 3/8.

Now, do I want a Veritas custom #5? Yea. Would it do any better work? Na.

 

[Pointfiveone.5]

Even the finest tool needs to be kept in good condition or it becomes worthless or at least worth less. Squares do need to be squared, blades need to be sharpened, tools need to be cleaned and put away, benches need to be cleared, floors need to be swept, even the mind should be cleared and set toward to next task.

Mike you've found me on one of my more contentious days - I think this argument of good tools ≠ better maker : : new tools = smother workflow is one of many facets but the argument i make for squaring your square remains.
that being - if i were to drop the machinist square I shelled out good dough for and it went out of square I would: 1 curse.... a lot... 2 find out how to re-square it 3 wonder what i could use to then ever trust that I made it true and square again by my own hands at a certain point the tool needs replacing.

trueing tools matters yes. even new tools need to be sharpened, yes. restoring tools that may have cost $20 at an estate sale has value IF the tool still holds it value in it's wear and tear, but even then there is a line.

maybe one day we will all find that LN bronze #4 smoother for sale for cheap. god help us its been taken care of!