Band saw wheel/tire crown

Ted P

Ted
Corporate Member
Folks; I'm new to the site and immediately want to ask for helpful information.

I have recently purchased a Yates-American J-120 nominal 20" band saw. I have torn it down and replaced the bearings, but the wheels yet need new tires. The lower wheel is crowned and I expect to just glue on a new rubber tire from Carter (with a rubber band to fill the center groove).
The upper wheel had what apparently was a vulcanized tire with steel band fitted over the aluminum wheel. All the rubber was missing from the metal band, and there was a poor condition urethane tire glued on. The metal band was without crown, and appeared to not be of any real value to the assembly so I removed it. When removed, the aluminum wheel also is without crown, but with a center groove. I intend to fill the groove with a rubber band and then put on a rubber tire from Carter.

My question is whether I should create a fixture and crown the rubber tire on the flat wheel, or if it is probable that the blade will track OK with one wheel crowned and one flat? I can of course do this trial and error, but since apart would be easier to do any remedial machining up front. The removed urethane tire appears to not have been crowned at any time in the past, and the previous owner claims the band saw worked well for him for a number of years.
My rational for buying the saw was to have larger resaw capacity than my 14" Delta, though I do also want to use narrow blades for scroll work as I do not intend to keep two band saws.
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism/suggestions.
 

sawman101

Bruce Swanson
Corporate Member
Since you're buying your tires from Carter, you might try shooting your questions to Alex Snodgrass at Carter. He or his Dad are band saw experts that can give you great information.
 

bob vaughan

Bob Vaughan
Senior User
That grooved wheel is also on Delta 20" band saws. Its a problem that has a work around. WTW (Woodworkers Tool Works) sells thick rubber tires that one installs with epoxy over the wheels and the groove is ignored. I've done a couple of those recently and have had good success. The crown doesn't deflect down into the groove like you might think.

The tires with the metal band were Carter Jiffy Tires popular in the 50s and 60s.

Both tires need crowning.

1 jiffy - 1.jpg

Carter Jiffy tire cut off the wheel

1 jiffy - 2.jpg

J-120's wheel dimensions
Groove depth should be .084 not .84.

1 jiffy - 3.jpg

Installing a WTW thick tire

1 jiffy - 4.jpg

Installing a WTW thick tire


1 jiffy - 5.jpg


Installing a WTW thick tire

1 jiffy - 6.jpg

Tire installed

1 jiffy - 7.jpg

Tire installed

1 jiffy - 8.jpg

WTW very slow set epoxy. You've got plenty of time. Takes about 24 hours to set up properly

1 jiffy - 9.jpg

How much epoxy I used. Should have mixed more as I ran pretty low at the last.


1 jiffy - 10.jpg

Crowned tire. I think the tires now supplied are of a slightly softer rubber and a little easier to crown. This was so on the second wheel I did with WTW tires.

Crowned tire
 

Ted P

Ted
Corporate Member
Bob
Thank you so much for the information. When I had talked to the service group at Carter, they did not mention that the metal band (which looked exactly like your picture after I cut it with an abrasive wheel) was the remnants of a tire that they sold - assuming the Carters are the same. It was suggested to remove it. The gentleman I spoke with also suggested filling in the wheel grooves with epoxy, or a rubber band that they could sell - though he felt that filling in with epoxy was better. I have filled the groove on the drive wheel, which is crowned, with JB Weld.

Given that the one wheel is crowned and has the centering groove filled with epoxy, could/should I install a more normal 3/16" thick tire on it and the 3/8" thick tire on the upper flat wheel, then crown only the tire on the flat wheel? I'm thinking that the thick tire may not conform well to the crowned aluminum wheel - though I've clearly no experience in that regard.

It appears that one order of epoxy is adequate - especially if I fill the second wheel's groove with JB Weld.

Thanks again for your time. I am a bit surprised I did not find the WTW site when Google searching Yates and band saw tire.... oh well, lot's I don't understand.

Ted
 

bob vaughan

Bob Vaughan
Senior User
You're in a situation I've never encountered. Usually wheels are the same when I start.
Flawed assumption: flat band saw tires are always equal thickness all the way around. It just doesn't work out that way. It might get close some times and some times not.

I think your idea of two separate thickness of tires at this point may be a good strategy. Once glued on, both wheels will need to be crowned.

there's not a lot of info out there on the J-120 so that may be a distinction that google followed only. Actually the 20" Delta/Rockwell wheels are very similar so most of the info to search will be on those wheels. Actually, the early Delta saws used the Jiffy tire also. Yes, today's Carter people are the same company that once made the Jiffy tire. Truth is, today's tires specially made for the Delta 20 grooved wheels will also fit the J-120. (you probably didn't want to read that).

1 jiffy delta.jpg
From delta's 1955 catalog
 

Ted P

Ted
Corporate Member
Bob;
I'm manufacturing a fixture to crown the wheels using an abrasive disk on my table saw to grind the bevel (I've read a bevel is nearly as good as a profiled crown). If I can get the wheel axis perpendicular to the table top, I can just dial in a 5-7 deg bevel and spin the wheel. Again, to avoid trial and error, would you share the grit of the grinding surface you use when beveling the tire?
Thanks again for your time and expertise.
Ted
 

bob vaughan

Bob Vaughan
Senior User
80 grit is what I use on the sanding drums because I've got a lot of 80grit sanding drums. Otherwise, I might be tempted to try 60 grit.
 

Ted P

Ted
Corporate Member
Other aspects of life have been getting in the way of band saw reconditioning. Had a bit of time today.

Stretched on and glued the thick tire with only anticipated effort (photos above were a major help). I naively assumed the thin tire would glue onto the crowned wheel as easily. Part way around glueing it, the tire came off the wheel like a slingshot, lubricated by the glue. By the time I got the tire back on the wheel, the tire, the wheel, and I had a fairly liberal coating of glue on us :(. A dozen wire ties helps hold the tire in place while lifting to smear the glue under it........ too bad that was an after thought. A lesson learned, but unless I screw up the crowning, I may never do that again anyway....
 

Ted P

Ted
Corporate Member
I've been working around my apart Yates American bandsaw for a long time (especially now that I see the last post date). I've sold my other band saw and need to push fixing this one up higher on the work list.

I've manufactured a fixture to crown the tires with a sanding disk on my radial arm saw. I'm trying to decide how much to machine off the tires before crowning - or even during crowning. Per the earlier discussion on this thread, my saw has two different style/configuration wheels. One was crowned and I installed a thin rubber tire on it. The other was flat and I installed a thick rubber tire on it.

The crowned wheel with tire is +/- 20 1/8" in diameter, but the thick rubber tired wheel is slightly over 20 3/8" diameter. I'm thinking the finished wheels should be identical in diameter. Even if adjusting the upper wheel in an attempt to align the cutting side of the blade over the lower drive wheel, it does not look like the machine can accommodate that amount of adjustment without the blade running against the back frame. If the upper wheel is not directly above the lower drive wheel, it is probably possible to adjust the blade guides and the table to keep the blade truly perpendicular to the table, but may introduce other issues.

What is the collective wisdom of the group? Should I grind another 1/8" off the radius of the upper wheel?
 

bob vaughan

Bob Vaughan
Senior User
A crown is important. How much of a crown varies with what you've got to work with. 5º works pretty good. 7-1/2º is good for a saw using thinner blades. Look at what you've got and use the TLAR method (That Looks About Right).

Looks like both the top wheel and the bottom wheel are somewhat adjustable side to side so you've got some wiggle room.

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/782/1900.pdf
 

Pop Golden

New User
Pop
Hi Bob, I have a bandsaw with no crown. Let me explain. The ShopSmith saw has no crown. Most ShopSmith machines have been dumbed down to remove as many newbie problems as possible. The upper blade tire is sloped toward the rear of the saw. Located at a point just below where the blade intersects the upper wheel there is a small bearing with a small groove in it. This is the tracking wheel. All blades have the backs of the blade in the same location leaving only the side guides to be adjusted. I have 2 bandsaws. I have my 14 in. Delta all made in the US with all the bells & whistles (Carter guides, tires, tension release etc. My other saw is the Shopsmith. It has no side guides or rear support wheels. It has a Carter Stabilizer and runs only 1/8 in. blade. This is my answer to a "SUPER SCROLLSAW". Yes I'm aware that the blade is unsupported except for the stabilizer what this allows is maximum blade flexibility. Look thus little guy up on YouTube you'll be amazed.

Pop
 

bob vaughan

Bob Vaughan
Senior User
1/8" blades take a rather specialized machine. It should be small and light. A lot of the earlier Sears 12" saws were this way. For those blades, whatever keeps it on the saw, that's what you do.
A friend, Peter Chapman, has been using the 1960s era Sears 12" band saws for years for making his puzzles. He and his son use no upper or lower guides, just hand skill and experience in cutting tight curves in thick stock

Puzzles by Peter Chapman

While the above isn't applicable to the industrial grade J-120 that's the focus of this thread, I hope the above is found amusing and interesting.
 

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