And the plot thickens - RE: Sawstop vs. Bosch

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Gotcha6

Dennis
Corporate Member
This article was in the online version of WWer's Journal and I though it would be good for information. There is much controversy over the SawStop system and Bosch seems to have built a better mousetrap, much to the dismay of SawStop. Keep in mind I'm posting this for information only and reserve the right as author to close the thread should I feel the discussion get out of hand moderators notwithstanding. I feel this is a valid Safety and Health issue that all members considering purchasing this technology should consider.

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/bosch-sawstop-embroiled-in-reaxx-table-saw-lawsuit/
 

Berta

Berta
Corporate Member
I agree that someone will always build a better.....anything. I was getting too afraid of my table saw to use it. Buying the SawStop has helped my confidence. For me that was the best choice.
 

Raymond

Raymond
Corporate Member
As most of you know, I work for Robert Bosch Tools Corp. and believe in Bosch's REAXX technology. Having said that, I know that Bosch will license the technology to other saw manufacturers - just like they did with a lot of their automotive technologies, diesel rail injectors, ABS, fuel injectors, spark plugs, etc...

IMO, SawStop will just have to get used to not being the only game in town.
 

ashley_phil

Phil Ashley
Corporate Member
ironically the original marketing plan from Gass was to licences his new technology to other brands. they all declined to incorporate it into their models. hence sawstop was eventually born.

i find it hard to believe sawstop will prevail, i mean look at apple and all the smart phones that have followed.
 

JackLeg

Reggie
Corporate Member
Wow! Sounds interesting! Especially the price point!! I have several Bosch products and am well satisfied with all of them!
 

bluedawg76

New User
Sam
ironically the original marketing plan from Gass was to licences his new technology to other brands. they all declined to incorporate it into their models. hence sawstop was eventually born.

i find it hard to believe sawstop will prevail, i mean look at apple and all the smart phones that have followed.
It wasn't the technology they weren't interested in, it was the price tag for the licensing fee (wouldn't let go of the patent). Can't blame him, just sayin'. Honestly, the quality of the saw is more important to me than a gadget and the saw stop is definitely a solid piece of machinery. Just like the iPhone!
 

KenOfCary

Board of Directors, Secretary
Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
Didn't have time yet to examine the link on the original post, but I've been very happy with my SawStop and the quality of the saw regardless of the features. I've accidentally set off the brake once and other than the "aw shucks' moment it caused - no fingers were involved - I'm just glad the technology works.

Competition is good and I will welcome when all Saws have flesh sensing technology built into them - Table Saws, Band Saws, Circular Saws, and Chop Saws - we'll all be safer as a result.

The next great invention (in my humble opinion) will be a better solution to the kickback problem. Riving knives are great for table saws, but I've had more problem with kickback on a miter saw and even a biscuit joiner. Maybe someday technology will solve all of these problems.

Progress is a good thing.
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Corporate Member
IIRC when this issue first came up, other manufacturers were reluctant to purchase licensing for the technology for fear that it would imply their saws as is were not safe and it would open up a big can of worms for litigation. Let's all hope common sense prevails for the benefit of future (and present) woodworkers out there. I will not advocate here that all saws should have this feature, but I will support the option of more choices for the consumer/user.
 

drw

Donn
Corporate Member
interesting article, Bosch's technology sounds both interesting and impressive. I own a SawStop and have been extremely pleased with its quality and performance; if Bosch's product proves to be a match, more power to them. That said, if Bosch does license its technology to other manufacturers I am confident that Bosch, like SawStop, will expect a return on its investments in developing the technology and bringing it to market.
 

llucas

luke
Senior User
Great discussion...full disclosure, I have a SawStop and love it....for the high quality if nothing else. I have "deployed" the safety mechanism twice ( both times with a "metal touch") and damaged two blades and "wasted" two cartridges. I love competition, and hope SS will feel the heat and perhaps modify their device to spare the blade and lower the price of the brake cartridge at least. All in all I am happy with my choice in this tablesaw and would buy it again without any improvements.
Hatsoff to Bosch for its contribution to a market economy.
 

chris_goris

Chris
Senior User
Wha wha whaaaaaa…… Maybe since sawstop is suing for patent infringement its not ALL about safety to them. Sure, I know theyre in the business to make money, but supposedly is was more about safety to them.
 

FredP

Fred
Corporate Member
I could be persuaded to show an interest in a Sawstop IF (thats a big if) they could design it to simply drop the blade below the table and shut the saw off normally. No need to buy a new cartridge or a new blade, neither of which are cheap! I haven't looked at the Bosch so I have no opinion on it.
 

thsb

New User
Tim
I have replaced the cartridge twice (once for metal i think-never fully figured it out) the other to save my dad's fingers. I didn't mind replacing the cartridges at all and i don't like working on machines much. Was happy to pay the 70.00 for the cartridge both times.
 

tarheelz

Dave
Corporate Member
Where's patlaw when you need him?

My uneducated guess is that some, but not all, of SawStop's numerous patents are infringed here. Bosch may need to rework things ... or *gasp* ... finally bring the rest of the "Power Tool Institute" to the table to talk about settlement on mutually acceptable terms. That would be great for consumers.

Question not answered by the article: Does Bosch claim that their technology is as good/better as/than SawStop's (e.g. can you get the CEO of Bosch to touch a spinning blade with his bare finger)?
 

chris_goris

Chris
Senior User
When I first witnessed sawstop technology , my first question was, WHY do they have to stop the blade if the natural action of the sytem is to swing away and drop below the tabletop out of harms way?. It seems this is what Bosch has done here. Patents are funny things, I have 2 of my own. They are only as good as the attorneys who write them. They must be written broad enough to cover any possible downstream infringement with their claims. They also must be very specific as far as a system function goes. In other words, you can not patent an idea very broadly that cannot or will not actually function. Like saying, The invention is for a new type of engine that runs on any gases either liquid or otherwise… while this may be a great idea, you must tell exactly how it works as well. I cant imagine the Bosch corporate IP attorneys didnt know exactly what they were doing here. they have been around the block a few times.
 

patlaw

Mike
Corporate Member
Where's patlaw when you need him?
Right here. Still brooding over having missed the picnic and the raffle.

My uneducated guess is that some, but not all, of SawStop's numerous patents are infringed here. Bosch may need to rework things ... or *gasp* ... finally bring the rest of the "Power Tool Institute" to the table to talk about settlement on mutually acceptable terms. That would be great for consumers.
Patents are HIGHLY technical. There are trials and there are appeals. The judges often don't agree. Without doing a claim chart and going through a thorough analysis of both inventions, it would be hard to tell if there is infringement. The accused device has to infringe every element of a claim in the patented device.

Question not answered by the article: Does Bosch claim that their technology is as good/better as/than SawStop's (e.g. can you get the CEO of Bosch to touch a spinning blade with his bare finger)?
The video I saw sure suggested to me that Bosch thinks it's better. If the price and cost of operation are lower, and if it's a good saw, SawStop will have some serious competition. Let's see. Who has deeper pockets? SawStop or Bosch?

By the way, here is the complaint with the relevant patents. Which SawStop claims do you think the Bosch invention infringes? The decision from the ITC is the one that's pending. This litigation will likely take years. It may last longer than SawStop's patents. Only time will tell.
 
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FlyingRon

Board of Directors, Webmaster
Ron
Staff member
Corporate Member
Whether it infringes or not is something the courts will have to decide. I've not looked at the merits (nor do I care to). I can tell you, that Sawstop's time is running out anyhow. In five years, the patent will be expired and the invention no longer novel enough to merit protection. I suspect we will see a lot more flesh-sensing saws then and maybe some price relief (though I didn't really find my PCS out of line with similar units from others) like we saw when Fein's patent ran out on the multitool.

I believe it is the fact that they jam the hunk of aluminum into the blade that then uses the rotational inertia to yank the blade away. Obviously, Bosch has another idea of how to do that. At least Bosch's looks better than this other guy's idea which used an (in my opinion) hokey optical system for detection and some unspecified blade braking (I suspect that it was just feeding DC into the motor to lock the stator but the "inventor" never would admit that). I made some skeptical remarks on one of the other woodworking boards and boy did this guy fly off the handle.
 

patlaw

Mike
Corporate Member
Whether it infringes or not is something the courts will have to decide. I've not looked at the merits (nor do I care to). I can tell you, that Sawstop's time is running out anyhow. In five years, the patent will be expired and the invention no longer novel enough to merit protection. I suspect we will see a lot more flesh-sensing saws then and maybe some price relief (though I didn't really find my PCS out of line with similar units from others) like we saw when Fein's patent ran out on the multitool.
Which patent runs out in five years? According to what I read, here are the patents being asserted:

On June 5, 2007, the United States Patent & Trademark Office duly issued U.S. Patent No. 7,225,712 (the ‘712 Patent), titled “Motion Detecting System for Use in A Safety System for Power Equipment.”
• On October 13, 2009, the United States Patent & Trademark Office duly issued U.S. Patent No. 7,600,455 (the ‘455 Patent), titled “Logic Control for Fast-Acting Safety System.”
• On November 3, 2009, the United States Patent & Trademark Office duly issued U.S. Patent No. 7,610,836 (the ‘836 Patent), titled “Replaceable Brake Mechanism for Power Equipment.”
• On March 1, 2011, the United States Patent & Trademark Office duly issued U.S. Patent No. 7,895,927 (the ‘927 Patent), titled “Power Equipment with Detection and Reaction Systems.”
• On September 6, 2011, the United States Patent & Trademark Office duly issued U.S. Patent No. 8,011,279 (the ‘279 Patent), titled “Power Equipment with Systems to Mitigate or Prevent Injury.”
• On June 5, 2012, the United States Patent & Trademark Office duly issued U.S. Patent No. 8,191,450 (the ‘450 Patent), titled “Power Equipment with Detection and Reaction Systems.”
A patent is good for 20 years from the date of issue.

I believe it is the fact that they jam the hunk of aluminum into the blade that then uses the rotational inertia to yank the blade away. Obviously, Bosch has another idea of how to do that. At least Bosch's looks better than this other guy's idea which used an (in my opinion) hokey optical system for detection and some unspecified blade braking (I suspect that it was just feeding DC into the motor to lock the stator but the "inventor" never would admit that). I made some skeptical remarks on one of the other woodworking boards and boy did this guy fly off the handle.
The infringement analysis is very technical and fact-intensive.
 

FlyingRon

Board of Directors, Webmaster
Ron
Staff member
Corporate Member
Hmm...I thought the 712 was from 2001, I guess I'm off from a few years.
 
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