Alcohols for shellac?

[Jeff]

Just a curiosity on my part whether dissolving dried shellac flakes or cutting Zinsser SealCoat which was prompted by the following commentary by Jeff Jewitt: "Use the right alcohol".

http://www.finewoodworking.com/Materials/MaterialsArticle.aspx?id=28833

All of the BORGs and paint stores sell denatured alcohol: KleanStrip S-L-X or Crown DNA at about $16-17/gallon. KleanStrip is about 45-50% methanol and Crown is about 70-75% methanol; the balance is ethanol and a few % added denaturants. The boiling point difference between methanol and ethanol is about 25 degrees Fahrenheit. Have you ever wondered why your shellac finish seemed to just "flash dry" without sufficient working time? :dontknow:

On the other hand, Behlen's Bekhol is 70-100% ethanol with <0.1% methanol. Other ingredients include higher boiling alcohols as denaturants. It's only $24/gallon and $7.75/quart.

http://www.meritindustries.com/shellac.htm

It seems like a small additional price to pay overall for a quality finish and a quality piece. :icon_cheers

What's been your experience with these solvents? Pros/cons/price workability, etc.? Awhile back another member reported that adding a little glycol ethers to his shellac mix worked nicely to extend the working/drying time.

 

[merrill77]

I've been doing some shellac work this week and was wishing for a slower time, so it would level better. Now I know why the Behlens is 50% more. I just purchased a new can of alcohol from the BBRG last weekend :BangHead:

 

[kooshball]

I struggled with this issue myself when finishing a large dresser. I tried some additives but they were not stable so I addressed the issue without actually solving it...I bought the $15 HVLP gun from Harbor Freight and taught myself to spray.

This turned out to be a good choice as I would have been left with a disaster if I went at it by hand on the large surfaces. In the end the fast evaporation rate was a good thing, I could easily lay down 5, thin coats in an afternoon and rub it out the next day; quick and easy!

 

[Tarhead]

Switched to 95% Ethanol (Everclear or Diesel) and like it better than DNA. Dissolves faster and no toxic fumes or bad stuff exposure other than the Ethanol. You can special order it at the ABC store.

 

[merrill77]

Switched to 95% Ethanol (Everclear or Diesel) and like it better than DNA. Dissolves faster and no toxic fumes or bad stuff exposure other than the Ethanol. You can special order it at the ABC store.

Do you recall the cost?

 

[Tarhead]

It's been a while but I think it was about $15.00 for a half gallon.

 

[Jeff]

It's been a while but I think it was about $15.00 for a half gallon.

Perhaps check with Junior Johnson in North Wilkesboro for a 1940 Ford loaded with 'shine. I think that he only delivers after midnight. :gar-La;

 

[CrealBilly]

It's been a while but I think it was about $15.00 for a half gallon.

I'm headed to southern IL in the middle of Dec and will be back the first of Jan. I can get ethanol a lot cheaper than $15.00 a gallon - Being IL is ethanol country you pump it just like gasoline from the gas station. It's E95 (95% ethanol 5% gasoline) I can bring a little back if you guys want try it out as a DNA substitute.

 

[Bernhard]

I'm headed to southern IL in the middle of Dec and will be back the first of Jan. I can get ethanol a lot cheaper than $15.00 a gallon - Being IL is ethanol country you pump just like gasoline from the gas station. It's E95 (95% ethanol 5% gasoline) I can bring a little back if you guys want try it out as a DNA substitute.

Jeff,
...not to burst your bubble, but E85 and E95 are 15% and 5% ethanol, respectively.

As for a good source of ethanol: Technical grade reagent ethanol (if you know any chemists)

Cheers,
Bernhard

 

[CrealBilly]

Jeff,
...not to burst your bubble, but E85 and E95 are 15% and 5% ethanol, respectively.

As for a good source of ethanol: Technical grade reagent ethanol (if you know any chemists)

Cheers,
Bernhard

OK I was going by this website ---> http://www.cleanairtrust.org/Differences-Between-E85-and-E95.html That says E85 is "Composed of 85% ethanol plus 15% gasoline" and E95 "is a generous concentration of 95% ethanol combined with 5% gasoline."

I also know when I buy gas in IL almost all the pumps display a sicker that says it contains upto 10% ethanol. Here's a little more info from UofI on ethanol labeling requirements and info on E10 and E85 ---> http://web.extension.illinois.edu/ethanol/vehicles.cfm To be honest it's hard to find a gas sation in southern IL that doesn't contain ethanol.

But it's ok, I run the 10% ethanol when I'm there and my vehicles run no different at least that I can tell. I wished I had a flex fuel system so I could run E85 and E95 when I'm there, it's cheaper than regular gas.

Thanks

 

[Bernhard]

OK I was going by this website ---> http://www.cleanairtrust.org/Differences-Between-E85-and-E95.html That says E85 is "Composed of 85% ethanol plus 15% gasoline" and E95 "is a generous concentration of 95% ethanol combined with 5% gasoline."

I also know when I buy gas in IL almost all the pumps display a sicker that says it contains upto 10% ethanol. Here's a little more info from UofI on ethanol labeling requirements and info on E10 and E85 ---> http://web.extension.illinois.edu/ethanol/vehicles.cfm To be honest it's hard to find a gas sation in southern IL that doesn't contain ethanol.

But it's ok, I run the 10% ethanol when I'm there and my vehicles run no different at least that I can tell. I wished I had a flex fuel system so I could run E85 and E95 when I'm there, it's cheaper than regular gas.

Thanks

Hey Jeff,

I stand corrected: You were correct. E85 is 85% ethanol.


Cheers,
Bernhard

 

[Jeff]

Chemically I think that having ANY gasoline in a shellac mix will be a consummate disaster before it even starts. :thumbs_do

That being said, the ethanol in gasoline discussion is interesting. While our typical vehicles can handle about 10% ethanol without damage our small combustion engines are probably taking an unintended beating and may suffer premature failure with gasohol. NC is one of a few states that don't require pump labeling for gasohol blends.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/tech/ethanol-could-kill-your-small-engine

 

[CrealBilly]

Chemically I think that having ANY gasoline in a shellac mix will be a consummate disaster before it even starts. :thumbs_do

Perhaps your right but I'm not planning on a trip to Brazil anytime soon.

 

[CrealBilly]

Hey Jeff,

I stand corrected: You were correct. E85 is 85% ethanol.


Cheers,
Bernhard

No worries

 

[Gotcha6]

All the literature I've seen on E85 and E90 indicate that a Flex Fuel vehicle suffers about a 1/3 loss in MPG on the stuff as compared to traditional gasoline, offsetting any savings in cost/gallon. Has that been your experience, Jeff?
And yes, most stations around here do state at the pumps that their fuel MAY contain up to 10% ethanol.
As for using E85/E90 as paint thinner, I'd be fearful the additives in the fuel would create an adverse odor to the finished wood. Some of them have a high flash point & may not evaporate readily (can you say, "gummed up carburetor?").

 

[CrealBilly]

All the literature I've seen on E85 and E90 indicate that a Flex Fuel vehicle suffers about a 1/3 loss in MPG on the stuff as compared to traditional gasoline, offsetting any savings in cost/gallon. Has that been your experience, Jeff?
And yes, most stations around here do state at the pumps that their fuel MAY contain up to 10% ethanol.
As for using E85/E90 as paint thinner, I'd be fearful the additives in the fuel would create an adverse odor to the finished wood. Some of them have a high flash point & may not evaporate readily (can you say, "gummed up carburetor?").

I don't know about he MPG loss for e85 or e95 in my turck since it was ordered gasoline only. There is a kit for a couple hundred I could put in to convert it to flex fuel. I will consider installing the kit when we move there. The only thing holding me back from moving to southern IL is the economy, I would like to be able to sell my house for at least what I owe on it, cut my losses and move but even that in this economy seems like it's next to impossible.

 

[bluedawg76]

Wow! Thanks for posting this Jeff. For some dumb reason, I'd assumed that dna was akin to reagent grade alcohol in the lab which is typically 70-95% ethanol w/ MeOH and isopropanol and a few ketones making up the difference. I generally regard ethanol and methanol on a very different level regarding safety and handling for things like liver toxicity. This is especially true if you are using it to hand rub a finish. How protective is latex vs. nitrile gloves in this respect. I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner since the difference n volatility (i.e. evaporation rate) is quite significant and my shellac finishes dry SO FAST. It now makes perfect sense!
Bekhol's sounds like a good solution!
Also, what about isopropanol? Is it sold at greater than 70%? It would have a significantly slower evaporation rate as compared to ethanol and I wouldn't think the solubility of shellac flake would be greatly diminished.
And I agree that gasoline is probably not a good idea for a finish solvent.
Sam

 

[kooshball]

He actually has his own brand of drinkn' liquor at the ABC stores now...they created a "local section"...looks like we are going from micro brews to micro stills.

 

[Woodmolds]

He actually has his own brand of drinkn' liquor at the ABC stores now...they created a "local section"...looks like we are going from micro brews to micro stills.

For inquiring minds! This is produced just a few miles from me in Madison, NC. When it was started in 2005 it was the only licensed distillery(Piedmont Distillers) in North Carolina. The signature product is "Catdaddy Carolina Moonshine". Junior Johnson joined as a part owner in 2007. They introduced Junior Johnson’s Midnight Moon. The web site is "www dot catdaddymoonshine dot com".

On the topic of alcohol for shellac. For those who may know of Don Williams, he uses "Everclear" to dissolve shellac, because it doesn't have the extra additives that are in DNA. If it works for Don it's good enough for me, because I consider him an expert on the subject of finishing.

Tony

 

[stave]

I was following this thread to learn about shellac. I have been experimenting with it as a finish for about a year having switched from lacquer.

It just so happens that for the last 3 days I have been trying to finish a carving and have had problems with the shellac blushing. I ran out of my rattle can leveler for lacquer which I have used before for this problem. I was spraying a Zinszer shellac which is a 3 lb. cut from the information I have been able to find. I was mixing this in a 40/60 mix with 60% HD denatured alcohol. Usually I spray a 50/50 mix. I mean the blushing was bad enough to turn chocolate paint white. I added alcohol, sprayed straight alcohol and nothing took the blush out. Reduced air pressure smaller spray patterns were tried as well. After research this is what I found.

First of all spraying straight Zinser shellac will reduce the surface temp of the wood, spraying a further alcohol reduced shellac mix lowers the surface temp even further. Alcohol is the culprit as it dissipates rapidly and cools as it is sprayed. It turns out that the denatured alcohol can be less than 40% alcohol in some cases. It also turns out that alcohol is hydroscopic meaning it draws moisture from the air as well as the finish. So lower temps and cheap alcohol were causing the blushing. I also did not drain my compressor and even though there is a filter there was to much moisture getting into my lines causing further problems.

The solution from my reading is to use a higher grade of alcohol, propyl or butyl alcohol being the suggested types. Both of which I am at a loss of where to purchase. I can also warm the finish to compensate for the temp drop when spraying. I can use the lacquer retarder sparingly as this will affect the quality of the finish but will reduce the blushing. They also suggest using a little heat as in hair dryer to remove blushing from edges etc.

I still consider myself to be a newcomer to shellac so does anyone else have suggestions and know where to buy a reasonably priced alcohol of good quality. I would prefer to just be able to go somewhere local like a paint store, auto or medical supply store. I will probably go back to my tried and true mixes and methods but would like to be prepared and understand what happens with future problems.

Stave