A complicated journey

JNCarr

Joe
Corporate Member
With watches or clocks, anything beyond second, minute and hour hand is called a "complication". Examples are day/date indicators or moon phase depiction.
I am beginning a journey to design and build a "grand complication" wooden clock as sort of a signature timepiece. Unlike all of my recent clocks, where complications are done via separate computer-controlled stepper motors, this piece will have a single motor and all timing and complications will be accomplished via gears, levers, cams, pawls, etc. This is how it's done in all traditional mechanical watches.
My current list of complications is:
- day
- perpetual calendar (perpetual means it takes into account number of days in the month including leap years, without manual adjustment)
- moon phase depicting a very accurate moon representation accurate to one day in 200+ years
- celestial chart (accurate to 1/3 second per year)
- GMT (Greenwich Mean Time)
I'm considering:
- sunrise/sunset indicator for longitude/latitude (trick here is how to input location)
- day of the year
- week of the year
- tidal phase (again the trick is to input location)
To complicate the complications, I want the structure to be "open works" or "skeleton". This means that a good portion of the face is open to the gears and mechanisms.
At this point, I think the style will be of a classic pocket watch. I'm thinking 24-30" diameter.

Step 1 - design and prototype the perpetual calendar. This is arguably the most complicated of the complications because it's an irregular computation of days of the month, taking into account leap years. Everything else is gearing (albeit some difficult gear ratios). I've been playing with two designs - a classical "grand lever" design and my own "incremental cam" design, which is unique. Attached are links to a couple of YouTube videos showing the classical grand lever design which I 3D printed. In a nutshell the yellow wheel on the left with all the cutouts takes into account a 4 year leap year cycle. The deepest slots are Febs. Note that one of them has a spacer - that's leap year. The deeper the slot the sooner the yellow pawl can activate a snail on the date wheel (hard to see). If there is interest, I'll post more details of how it works in a separate thread. The unique part of this is the epicycloid "racetrack" in the upper left that drives the lever arm actuator.


This will be over a year in the making, and I hope the description of the journey is of some interest.
 

creasman

Jim
Staff member
Corporate Member
Please continue to post details as you work out the mechanics. This is fascinating.
 

Henry W

Henry
Corporate Member
Ok Joe, I just wonder why you don't take on more complex projects?! This one has too few complications (haha) for a talented guy like you.

GPS of course provides location but takes it out of the fully mechanical realm.

Looking forward to following your learning on this one.
 
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ptt49er

Phillip
Corporate Member
GPS of course provides location but takes it out of the fully mechanical realm.
Could you use GPS that converts lat/long to some sort of a mechanical input into the clock? Drives a separate gear or series of gears to adjust everything based on location?

I love this! Thanks much for sharing and I look forward to learning how you solve all of these challenges!
 
OP
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JNCarr

Joe
Corporate Member
Henry and Phillip - I've used GPS in one of my clocks to monitor time as well as location, but don't want to do that in this case. Purely mechanical.
In addition to the difficulty of having to set a single rotation based on two inputs, indicating the two inputs is another challenge.
John - These mechanisms are very much Rube Goldbergish. Here's a drawing of a Dubois. Note the classical moon phase wheel.
 

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Old Navy

Tater
User
Hopefully Chat GPT steps up it's game and helps you with the calculations! 😉
FYI: On those AI .. on calculations , I have had 3--5 different answers over a 7--10 day window when asked the same question. And how it's written.
 
OP
OP
J

JNCarr

Joe
Corporate Member
FYI: On those AI .. on calculations , I have had 3--5 different answers over a 7--10 day window when asked the same question. And how it's written.
Agreed - when I decided to do a celestial chart, I wanted it to be accurate to within 1 hour per year. Going from solar time, the time we keep every day on our clocks, to sidereal time, the apparent rotation of the stars, requires a gear ratio of 1.00273790929. In other words, the sidereal time is faster. After working on it for about 3 hours I got a gear ratio that was accurate to about 45 min per year. Then (duh) I decided to use AI to calculate it to within 1 second per year with no more than 3 gear sets and no gear greater than 60 teeth. The first response was accurate to about 3 months/yr (NOT one second) although it assured me this met the specs. After I challenged it 3 more times insisting the last time that it DO THE MATH!, it came back with a gear set that met my criteria and that's accurate to about 1/3 second per year. Caveat emptor!
 

Henry W

Henry
Corporate Member
FYI: On those AI .. on calculations , I have had 3--5 different answers over a 7--10 day window when asked the same question. And how it's written.
No no no. AI is absolutely based in truth! Of course it is, right?!
I have AI prompts to provide specific info with references. Follow those references and they in fact state NOTHING related to the AI summary/conclusions. So the references were a real and in an accepted peer reviewed journal; it's just that the info drawn from that reference is fictious.
 
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Old Navy

Tater
User
Agreed - when I decided to do a celestial chart, I wanted it to be accurate to within 1 hour per year. Going from solar time, the time we keep every day on our clocks, to sidereal time, the apparent rotation of the stars, requires a gear ratio of 1.00273790929. In other words, the sidereal time is faster. After working on it for about 3 hours I got a gear ratio that was accurate to about 45 min per year. Then (duh) I decided to use AI to calculate it to within 1 second per year with no more than 3 gear sets and no gear greater than 60 teeth. The first response was accurate to about 3 months/yr (NOT one second) although it assured me this met the specs. After I challenged it 3 more times insisting the last time that it DO THE MATH!, it came back with a gear set that met my criteria and that's accurate to about 1/3 second per year. Caveat emptor!
For more information, NASA Web site you will have to do a lot of searching they have computations for doing celestial time. I believe it's open to the public for use.. 👍 I have a master plan book full scale on about dozen " ALL Wood Clocks " majority are the Skelton Style, some were here I would like to copy an generate a code for cutting all the parts by CNC. Using different species an color. Counter weights are turned brass along with chain for drive.
 

bowman

Neal
Staff member
Corporate Member
Is there an adjustment for daylight savings time and back to standard time?
 
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JNCarr

Joe
Corporate Member
Is there an adjustment for daylight savings time and back to standard time?
That's a good question. Most high-end watches require the user to adjust the time +1 or -1 hour with the crown as usual. But now that you bring it up, I think I'll add a specific "corrector" lever to do it - this would legitimately count as another complication. Thanks!
 

woodlaker2

Ray
Corporate Member
Good luck! Or a quick read of your explanations and goals would indicate no luck may be involved. Still...the unknown complications are looming out there somewhere so still take the wishes of good luck.
 

Jack A.

Jack
Corporate Member
That's a good question. Most high-end watches require the user to adjust the time +1 or -1 hour with the crown as usual. But now that you bring it up, I think I'll add a specific "corrector" lever to do it - this would legitimately count as another complication. Thanks!

What you need is a wheel/cam that encodes the DST settings for your area, and can be easily swapped out for different locations or when the dates change.
 
Soooo, while I love to know how things work and try to make things mechanical of nature of my own from time to time.....no pun intended, or was it???? I have no clue how what you are doing works, sooo I will be one of those who is watching your journey saying ohh and ahh with amazement, because while I know what you're trying to do, I myself am not skilled by any means in that manner to fully understand how it all works or how to make it work, so I will live it all out through you.
 
OP
OP
J

JNCarr

Joe
Corporate Member
Soooo, while I love to know how things work and try to make things mechanical of nature of my own from time to time.....no pun intended, or was it???? I have no clue how what you are doing works, sooo I will be one of those who is watching your journey saying ohh and ahh with amazement, because while I know what you're trying to do, I myself am not skilled by any means in that manner to fully understand how it all works or how to make it work, so I will live it all out through you.
The really great thing about this forum is, while we are all connected in some way through woodworking, each of us has different talents and skills. I for one, would be hard pressed to carve a ball and claw leg for a cabinet, yet I see several members doing it and I am in awe. I look at Charlie's segmented turnings and wonder just how he has the patience and skills to do those - they are perfect. Scott, Berta and Tyler (Artisan Pirate) do outstanding scroll work. Jim Creasman's home-made tools are works of art. The list goes on and on. Sharing the projects, methods, results makes us all better woodworkers. I think that's why we're all here.
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Staff member
Corporate Member
That's waaaaaay over my head at this point in my life, but like lots of folks here, we're all rooting for you, and we want to see how this progresses, even the mistakes and corrections. After all, life itself is a learning curve.
 

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