Shellac Mixing: What do I use to dissolve flakes and cut premixed shellac?

[danmart77]

In another recent thread we got into discussing different options when mixing shellac. I personally avoid shellac in a can but others say they really like it and found it to be everything they need for the work they do.

One of the frustrations folks have with the premixed shellac is-- where can I find the Sealer? Well its becoming more difficult to find readily and ordering with shipping costs drives up the cost and rational of using it. All you get with the Sealer vs the Amber and Clear in a can is this: its dewaxed.

You can buy a pound of dewaxed shellac and have enough sealer to last you for years. Unlike the can, you can store it much longer and have FRESH sealer when you need it. As a bonus the same mix can be used as a finish. You can put any varnish over the shellac you are using as a sealer.

Then the question arrives... what do I dissolve my shellac flakes with or what do I thin my premixed shellac down to what I want?

I don't know anyone in the USA who knows more about shellac than Vijay Velji at shellacfinishes.com.

If you want to learn about shellac, visit his website. You won't be disappointed.

After conducting some less than scientific tests in my shop this week, I decided to send word to Vijay. His response to the question of what solvent is best for shellac use.


Hi Dan,
And the discussion goes on and on and on and on...........
Using common sense:
1) Shellac is dissolvable in ethanol.
2) Unfortunately pure ethanol is not available in most states due to federal and state restrictions.
3) If you live in a state where 100% ethanol is available, use it.
4) If you live in a state where only denatured alcohol is available, use it.
5) If you are allergic to methanol that is in the denatured alcohol, don't use it. Find a source of ethanol. If you can't, too bad!
6) If you have a lot of money to spend on Behlen stuff, do it.
7) Shellac is dissolvable in methanol, ethanol, propanol, iso-propanol, butanol, butylglycol, benzlalcohol.
8) At ALL times when using any sort of solvent, it is imperative that gloves be used during handling.

Regards,
Vijay

 

[Joe Scharle]

Thanks Dan. I copied the body of your thread into Wordpad and printed it for my shopbook.
As long as I have been using shellac, I really don't know much about it; except that I like it and it prevents most finishing headaches for me.

Stopped in Sherwin-Williams and sure enough...they don't carry the sealer anymore. I haven't mixed flakes in a long time, but I'll have to start putting my Mayonnaise jars through the dishwasher again!

 

[danmart77]

Thanks Dan. I copied the body of your thread into Wordpad and printed it for my shopbook.
As long as I have been using shellac, I really don't know much about it; except that I like it and it prevents most finishing headaches for me.

Stopped in Sherwin-Williams and sure enough...they don't carry the sealer anymore. I haven't mixed flakes in a long time, but I'll have to start putting my Mayonnaise jars through the dishwasher again!

http://www.shellacfinishes.com/product/dewaxed-shellac-flakes/

Joe
Take a close look at the flakes offered by Vijay. One of the most common oversights of can-shellac users is the variety of colors you can use in your work if you have the different flakes on hand. Vijay offers a "Variety Pack" that I bought to kind of take around with me and show others how much color and clarity you can achieve with some of the different lacs available.

Additionally, all of his flakes are de-waxed. That headache of decanting is not required.

I broke down and bought a pint of the Royal Lac and I must admit its tougher than I hoped for. Essentially, it goes on like shellac but cures out like varnish.

For starters I would encourage others to get the assorted pack and see what you like. The super blonde Vijay offers is sooooo much nicer than the "clear" offered in a can you will see the difference on something like maple as soon as it dries.

Take a look around Vijay's site. If you have questions, give him a call and he'll try his best to set you straight.

Oh by the way-- he offers a discount to NCWW members and he has a sale on Royal Lac this month.

Balls in your court amigo

 

[Jeff]

6) If you have a lot of money to spend on Behlen stuff, do it.

I don't know where he's getting his numbers but let's at least be factual about the comparative pricing. If you don't shop around you may pay $14/qt for Behkol.

1. Klingspor, $8.99/qt; Homestead Finishing, $10.25/qt.

2. Viyay's 200 proof Ethanol, $13.95/qt.

 

[Pop Golden]

What's with SealCoat? It's 2 lb. cut makes it spray very well & it's dewaxed . I find it an answer to my finishing needs.

Pop

 

[Jeff]

I too like SealCoat and have used it for quite awhile. It's getting harder to find it off of the shelf and deciphering the manufacturing date is mumbo-jumbo so you're not buying a batch that's already 2+ years old with a 3 year shelf life. The pinhole leaks in some cans just turned me off. Other than those things it's a good product.

My last can had this code on the lid:

S322...

1. S = made in Somerset, New Jersey.

2. ...322... made in 2013, February 2.

 

[Tarhead]

Vijay offers DQ NCWWs a 10% discount. This hasn't been requested for a while and I have been the "Keeper of the Code". PM me for it if you plan to order some.

Couple of thoughts on the subject:

If you walk into an NC ABC store you will see Everclear on the shelf. If you look close it is 90 proof not 190. You can request the 190 and have it shipped to the store. I think I paid ~$15 for a fifth of it right before NC's semi-prohibition of it.

Keep the container of alcohol closed and replace it if you start having problem with disolving shellac flakes. It is very attractive to water vapor and can dilute if exposed to our humid air for long.

To speed up disolving flakes, I make up a new batch in my plastic squirt bottle and carry it around in my front pants pocket for a morning. By lunch it's ready. Motion + body heat helps speed things up.

If you're spraying shellac you have made from flakes, use a paint strainer. It is produced outside and can have sticks, stones and small furry animals in it...not really but you will be surprized how much trash is in it.

Keep the blood on the inside.
Mark

 

[Hmerkle]

To speed up disolving flakes, I make up a new batch in my plastic squirt bottle and carry it around in my front pants pocket for a morning. By lunch it's ready. Motion + body heat helps speed things up.
Mark

Ha ha ha - is that Shallac in your pocket...

 

[Jeff]

If you walk into an NC ABC store you will see Everclear on the shelf. If you look close it is 90 proof not 190. You can request the 190 and have it shipped to the store.

Be clear on the definitions.

Proof = % alcohol by volume. 90 proof = 45% alcohol.

So 190 proof = 95% alcohol by volume.

 

[Tarhead]

Ha ha ha - is that Shallac in your pocket...

Nahhh...Just happy to see my Festools.:gar-La;

 

[Hmerkle]

Nahhh...Just happy to see my Festools.:gar-La;

I am stopping - before I get moderated... ha ha!

 

[KenOfCary]

I have a little coffee grinder in the shop for grinding the flakes into powder. Not sure it helps all that much but I feel like I'm doing something by recycling the thing to another purpose since we don't grind our own coffee anymore.

 

[Glenn1]

I do the same thing as Ken. I use a coffee bean grinder and then use denatured alcohol which can be purchased at most box stores. I have been going to the Shellac Shack for my dewaxed flakes. They offer many different colors or hues to choose from. From my past experience, they seem to have excellent prices.

 

[Jeff]

I broke down and bought a pint of the Royal Lac and I must admit its tougher than I hoped for. Essentially, it goes on like shellac but cures out like varnish.

Royal-lac is shellac (10-25%) in denatured ethanol containing about 10% of a "trade secret resin". A varnish of sorts?

Seal-lac is the same thing without the secret resin.

 

[Kent Adams]

Dan, I used Bekhol but I also used a small nut grinder to grind up the flakes beforehand. Works great for me. I've also bought the Zinser clear coat from Amazon with no shipping costs. Also, you can ship to HD for free and pick it up. I didn't find the flakes to be a cheaper alternative.

 

[willarda]

No one is allergic to methanol! We are all equally sensitive to it because it is a POISON! Methanol is converted to formaldehyde in the liver (!) and formaldehyde avidly reacts to amino groups on proteins, DNA and RNA. Not a good thing.

I am staying away from DNA. However, you can buy "ever clear" at the ABC store. This is 95%. To go from 95% (an azeotrope) to 100% requires addition of another solvent to break up the solution dynamics between ethanol and the residual water. That chemical is benzine. Also very much not good!

On the other hand, I am pretty sure that isopropanol (the next carbon alcohol in the series) will be a solvent. I have just ordered 100% isopropanol (500 mL for $7). It is readily available. Isopropanol is also known as rubbing alcohol and is regularly sold in pharmacies at 70% as a disinfectant. So, GAS (generally assumed safe)!

 

[Glenn1]

Hi Bill,

Nice to see your post. I took a class on sharpening saws from you a few years ago. It was excellent.

Are you saying that you can make shellac from 100% isopropyl alcohol?

 

[willarda]

I am saying I have ordered isopropanol and I will test how well it takes up shellac, then how it flows on and dries. Since it is a longer chain alcohol (albeit one carbon) I think it will dry a bit more slowly, which will help with flow out and evening of brush strokes. Just speculation right now. I was not able to find anything on the internet about using iPROH for shellac. The price of the alcohol is low compared to my needs. Plus it is GAS.

 

[Jeff]

Methanol is converted to formaldehyde in the liver (!) and formaldehyde avidly reacts to amino groups on proteins, DNA and RNA.

To be clear and accurate...

Methanol is toxic by two mechanisms. First, methanol (whether it enters the body by ingestion, inhalation, or absorption through the skin) can be fatal due to its CNS depressant properties in the same manner as ethanol poisoning. Second, in a process of toxication, it is metabolized to formic acid(which is present as the formate ion) via formaldehyde in a process initiated by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase in the liver.[SUP][20][/SUP] Methanol is converted to formaldehyde via alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) and formaldehyde is converted to formic acid (formate) via aldehyde dehydrogenase(ALDH). The conversion to formate via ALDH proceeds completely, with no detectable formaldehyde remaining.[SUP][21][/SUP] Formate is toxic because it inhibits mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase, causing hypoxia at the cellular level, and metabolic acidosis, among a variety of other metabolic disturbances.[SUP][22][/SUP]

Isopropanol has a boiling point of 82.6 degrees Centigrade while that of ethanol is 79 degrees (6.5 degrees Fahrenheit difference). Flowability and drying you'll evaluate for us.

The proof of the pudding may be how well the isopropanol dissolves a given weight of shellac flakes compared to ethanol. A 2 lb cut = 4oz shellac/pint of solvent.

Your evaluation will be interesting to follow! :eusa_thin

 

[Hmerkle]

Jeff and Bill,
I wanted to ask if isopropyl alcohol was the same thing as isopropanol, fortunatly or unfortunately Google beat me to the question;

From EHow:
"[FONT=&quot]Isopropanol and isopropyl alcohol are different names for the same chemical compound. "

[/FONT]http://www.ehow.com/info_8713406_isopropanol-alcohol-vs-isopropyl-alcohol.html

So my question; Will isopropyl alcohol work as well as DNA when working with shellac (Flakes or out of the can...)?

Or do we need to wait for Bill's testing???